Scoutmaster Podcast 158

And now the old Scoutmaster. So the scouts are at the grocery store buying a food to go camping and the patrol leader looks at his shopping list and he says: well, we need a carton of milk, and if they have any oranges, get six of them. And so a couple of scouts go off and they come back holding six cartons of milk and the patrol leader says: what, what do you do with six cartons of milk? He says, well, they have oranges.

Think about it for a little while. OK, it'll come to you. This is podcast number 158..

Well, welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green. Let's take a look in the mailbag. Neil wrote in to say: thanks very much, Clark. I look forward to getting back involved when I have my own scouts. Your site is a great resource for scouts. Thank you, Neil. Thanks for being in touch. Bill McFarland is the Scoutmaster of Troop 8 in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, And he wrote in to say: I don't envy what you must be going through with comments on the blog and other social media, But for one, I applaud what you're doing in keeping things civil. You're a voice of reason, So don't let the comments get you down. Well, thanks, Bill. It's been that kind of a week, But I always enjoy a vote of confidence and I really appreciate that David Copeland is in Troop 168 out in Oklahoma City. He says: thanks, Clark, for your great work and all the education as well as the inspiration. Thank you, David, for being in touch And again, thanks for the vote of confidence. I also heard from another Dave and he says thanks for your leadership this week in your posting on gays and scouting. I believe that the lack of civility in debate is a large part of what is missing. The proposed change might be the right compromise on the particular issue. These messages in the mailbag are certainly only representative of the kind of comments that I have been receiving in the past week or so, As you've been away from all sources of media for a couple of weeks. we're all aware that there is a membership change being proposed, And now that has been put off until May and we are going to be discussing it here. It is not going to be the exclusive subject of discussion, of course, because it's not exclusively what scouting is about, But I think it's responsible for us to do our best to have a civil discussion about this. Obviously, we're not all going to agree, And that's not all that surprising, because if you get seven or eight scout leaders together and you have a discussion, you find out within a reasonable amount of time. there's many things that we don't agree about. Somehow, though, the things that we hold in common are greater than the things that divide us, and we all manage to get along and work together. I do want to note we recorded our second scout circle last night. That's a live presentation with a speaker and then a question and answer period. Last night we had David Scott, who's the author of the scouting party. We thought it'd be nice to have a little bit of scouting history during this, the anniversary month of the BSA. You can go to scoutsurcleorg and you can see the recording of that presentation And note that our next one will be March the 10th, where we're going to be talking about the troop committee. So Sunday, March the 10th, between 9 and 10 pm at Eastern Standard Time at scoutsurcleorg. Hey, it's time to talk to our friends at Conho Creek. again, I've got Bill Fleming on the phone. How you doing, Bill? Doing great Clark. Hey, we're back talking about Boy Scout Knives. This month, every day, a new knife goes on sale for a 10% discount. It'll stay on sale at that discount for the entire month of February. And, Bill, I'm looking at one that's made by the Case Company. If you know knives, you know Case's quality Absolutely. Case has been around a very long time And I don't think we've ever had a Case knife that was a pull workmanship. And there's one that caught my eye here called the Boy Scout's Hobo Knife. How about that? Yeah, it's a pretty cool little knife. Got your knife, your fork and your spoon all in one unit. And we've had Boy Scout this knife and literally use it for all three or just use it as their basic knife. They just like the idea of having all those utensils available to them. And it's an officially licensed product of the BSA too. Yes, Yes, a very nice Florida Lee emblem right there in the handle. The whole knife is just a very solid, solid tool. So let's just remind everybody on ConahoeCreekcom for the month of February There's a new knife that goes on sale every day for a 10% discount. Use your special Scoutmaster Podcast coupon code, that's CG113, to get another 5% for a total 15% discount on these knives. Thanks a lot, Bill. Thank you, Clark. In this podcast coming up, I have a discussion that I recorded this week with a friend of mine who is a member of Scouts Canada. One thing I think would be useful if this change comes to pass and we have a new membership policy, is to look at how other Scouting organizations have handled it and what they've been doing. So I asked Dean to join me here on the podcast to talk a little bit about those issues. So after we talk to Dean, we've also got a couple of emails to answer, and that's going to take care of the rest of this podcast. So let's get started, shall we? So joining me is Dean Post and Dean, a Scouter Dean, as he is better known in the Interwebs, is a friend of the podcast and we've had him on before, And Dean is up there in Canada where he is a venture advisor.

How are you this evening, Dean? I'm very well, Clark, Thank you, But we're just being hit by a storm coming out from the US. What are you guys sending us? I believe it's snow. We don't like snow very much down here, and so we're trying to send as much north as possible. Well, it's well time, because we're headed off on a small snowshoe trip this week and a large one next weekend. so thank you, We appreciate it. One of the perennial concerns that I have had come up, Dean, is that there seems to be a correspondence at the time when Scouts Canada stopped banning people from membership based on sexual orientation and some kind of tremendous drop in membership numbers. Do you make that association? No, though, That's complete misconception. Scouts Canada did have declining numbers.

Since the late 70s we've had declining numbers And because of alternate choices for youth- they can do many different things that didn't need to be able to And the fact that our population growth slowed down. We just didn't have that kind of continued growth in our population. therefore the decreased growth in scouting- So that was continuous growth- That did not happen in 1998 or whatever date you want to peg, when we became fully inclusive. We did not have significant decrease because of that. That's a misnomer. Is it accurate to say that since 1998, membership in Scouts Canada has dropped by 50%? So in about 1998, we had just shy of 200,000 members. We're now at about 100,000 members. So you're right, We've had about a 50% decrease since 1998.. But that is an ongoing decrease. that's been happening since 1981. So that was just a natural progression. But again, as I stated, where our membership has stopped that decline and now we're starting to grow again. Since 2009,. we've been in a growth status for the last few years. And what do you owe that growth to do? you think It's a growth because we are modernizing Scouts Canada. We have reinvigorated our programs. We've listened more to what the youth want and tried to make the youth more of the drivers of the organization, just like Bayton, Powell and Vision, where it was a movement where the youth caused a direction. We've gone back to that roots but modernized and gave them the power to set direction. They have true power across Scouts Canada, everywhere, from a national youth commissioner down to group youth commissioners who help drive the program, make sure it's relevant to today's youth, while sticking to our core of outdoor activities. I've seen some things about that And there's actually kind of a corollary youth executive structure. that's kind of- I guess, if I was to borrow a term- vertically integrated Opinions and their ideas actually make it to the people who actually call it right policy and program and things. Currently, for example, Scouts Canada is going through a major program review with a revitalization coming out next year or two, And each one of these teams beavers through Rovers. there are youth sitting around the table and giving their input as equals and helping us set these directions so that it's fun and exciting and based on their needs and wants.

And were you involved at 98 when this policy change was made? Yeah, I was, and I didn't notice What was the. I imagine there were some talk. What were people talking about at the time? Frankly, I don't remember any talk about inclusiveness As far as I knew. I joined, I started at 91 as a leader And in the early or the mid 90s there was talk of becoming co-ed And I know that was causing some ruffled feathers And I don't remember Scouts telling me they would go, they'd quit the moment to go co-ed And I can tell you- I can think of several of them who are still involved- So they didn't quit and they saw the advantage of it. When the late 90s came, when this inclusive thing happened, I didn't even notice. So it was just all part of our society's evolution And I didn't notice. Scouts can and I'd never heard anyone speak against the concept at all or be concerned about it. Have you had occasion to be at different events and things like that with American Scouts? Yes, we go to an international camp every year, which is at least 50% Scouts from the US. They're present. plus, I've been to World Jamboree, where US Scouts and Scouts from around the world are there. So I've had plenty of opportunity to interact with my brothers from the BSA. And has there been any concerns expressed over the fact that you're an inclusive organization at those events? Not that I noticed. I know years, a few years back, when we started having more and more girls, you'd be sitting around having coffee with the US Scouts and they'd go. they'd comment that gee, you guys have girls, How many girls have you to have a discussion? And they'd make comment that, gee, it just seems like normal here. Yeah, And as far as inclusiveness, no, no one's ever raised the issue. I mean no One of the concerns that I'm hearing raised is that if we were to open membership, that this would cause no end of difficulty with the danger of sexual activity or sexual attraction between boys on camp outs and sleeping in the same tent or using the same facilities.

Has that been an issue for Scouts Canada? No, we've not had that issue, Never even considered the fact of people who maybe attract to the same sex and sleep in the same tents. I mean, we have similar policies to the BSA and the fact that you know, for example, with our senior members, we have what we call the sad rule- no sex, alcohol or drugs- and they seem to understand that Sexuality is not really a big question. I mean, the kids are kids. they're out having great times. As far as same sex sharing quarters, we've never- I've never- come across that sort of situation. what's been an issue, Even in your own military, for example, which has now gone fully inclusive. they haven't made changes. They don't have separate dressing rooms or showers based on your sexuality. It's just being inclusive society. If there was some kind of real problem or real concern over any of these things that we've been talking about, that, it would be a topic of discussion and possibly training and things like that. but you're so I'm pushing you around a little bit. You're for real. you're telling me that that is just a non-issue.

I have not encountered it. We do talk about sexuality when we're being trained. We deal with the co-ed situation. Sexuality is something we talk about in training and wood badge and being accepting of kids, especially in the teen years, and but trying to give them a healthy lifestyle and give them alternatives to perhaps listen to their physicalness while at camp. Guys have gone through some big changes of late. You're characterizing these changes as pretty positive. Has there been no backlash, hard feelings about some of these things that have changed in Scouts Canada? In my experience, I've not heard of anyone being upset or quitting or threatening to. you know, pull sponsorship due to our inclusive nature. But, quite frankly, when they started talking about selling our scout camps, that created more fervor than being inclusive. As councils merge and things happen, sometimes properties have to be let go, and that's a pretty emotional thing. Exactly, and that becomes more emotional than this discussion. We have different sponsoring institutions, and these may be churches or civic groups of some kind. They make all the decisions as far as who is a suitable leader, Whatever description. that is issued by the BSA as being the minimal standard, but some people go over and above that. Is that common in Canada?

Yeah, well, in a way, we still have sponsors or partners, just like you do. Many of them are community groups. In some cases, they are religious organizations. Our affiliation with religious organizations are a lower percentage.

So, having said that, yes, there are cases where they might be sponsored by a particular religious organization. They do have various guidelines that you must be part of, where you have to be part of that church community, for example, to be a member of that group. That does still occur, yes, but it's much lower, and community groups and schools are the biggest part of our sponsors here. Would you like to talk to a 17-year-old about these views, Because actually my son is working away in the kitchen here. Let's listen to what I say. He wants to put in his sense. Okay, well, we'll put him on then. His name is Alex, So he's 17,. he's a venture scout.

And Alex, this is Scott or Clarke Green. Hello there, Hey, Alex, how are you Not too bad yourself? So how long have you been involved with Scouts? I'm on my 13th year right now. I'm talking to your dad about some of the things that are happening in the BSA right now And, as you're probably aware, that we're contemplating a change to our membership standards that would allow people that would remove the bearer we've had to people of different sexual orientations- Yes, I have been following that. You have any thoughts about that. Well, I've actually experienced people with all sorts of sexual orientations out of camp. I've seen people with different opinions on it all, but it's never become an issue. Potentially like people who are gay that do sleep in the tent with other males, for instance, And I've talked to them and it's never been an issue They all understand and that they just they don't care about. it is. I think the most important thing is part about inclusiveness is that they're treated fairly and they're treated the same, And just because of somebody's sexual orientation, that doesn't mean that we need to completely exclude them in the sense of having a separate sleeping area. So everybody's under that same understanding and they all seem to be very good about it here. So the world outside of scouting and the world in scouting people generally understand this. All right, You're quite a bit younger than I am. My son's probably about 10 years older than you. There are a lot of scouters my age and around my age who are feeling as if this is going to cause us a great deal of trouble. Is this something that your age group is thinking about all the time And is this just something that is just the way things are? Well, yeah, I think you have a very good point there of being the way things are, but definitely it is something that's become more and more aware. It's something that's openly talked about. in that sense. Yeah, It has just kind of become like the social norm that it's accepted, it's talked about And people have their opinions on it all, but generally it seems accepted. And you're saying about how some of the older scouters are maybe a little scared about it, And that's perfectly fair. Change is always scary. Even as a 17-year-old, things have changed. It can be scary and there are doubts, there are hesitations. but when you're moving forward in trying to do what's right and trying to be all-inclusive, that change can still be scary. but you can also hold true to yourself that you're doing it for the right reasons and you're doing the right thing. That's good advice, Alex. I hope people can accept that. Tell me a little bit about the more recent innovations in Scouts Canada so far as the youth are involved. Your dad was kind of going over that with me a bit. Have you participated in any of those things? Oh, definitely. A little while ago I took my focus training, which is a leadership training run by youth here in Scouts Canada. So I took that training a couple of years ago. and one thing that they did introduce then, which was the first time for myself, it did exist before but it was the ladder of leadership And it's all about, I believe, seven or eight stages on how youth are involved and based on the leadership that they have, in the leadership that their scouters or advisors and ventures have. So there's different steps and it's all about what step are you at and can you achieve a higher level? And, looking at it, our group at the time was actually quite high. Now I am working with my group youth commissioner, who's also a great friend of mine, and we're trying to encourage, especially within our group, to have a large amount of youth participation, encouraging the senior scouts to really step ahead and try and teach the younger scouts. So, yes, it has been a little difficult and with the revitalization of the program, but everybody seems to be doing their best to push it forward And with time I think it can be very well accomplished and I definitely am looking forward to everything that's happening. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Just that, all the way through scouting, I've loved what I do. It's become not only a family thing that I do with my father and my brother, but scouting itself has become my family. Yeah, I think we all feel that way at one point. So thanks again, Alex, I really appreciate it. Nice talking to you, Nice to talk to you. So if you had buttons on your vest before I started talking to the boy, you should not have any now, right, That's true. that's true. Yes, Yeah, what a great guy. Yes, Well, listen, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me again, Hey, Eric Clark, and keep up the good work. Thank you so much. All right, good talk to you. Give me a letter, send it by name, Email, that is, folks.

And here's an answer to one of your emails.

Dave sent me an email and he asked this question. We had a debate in our troop about whether or not scouts are to be held to a higher standard than others. Well, I think this is true. I also know that scouts are boys and they're still learning and growing. Dave, that's an interesting question And we are dedicated to being held to a higher standard. We have the scout oath and law as a standard. But just to say that we hold scouts to a higher standard, I think, is only half the story. I'm focused on scouts developing an internal standard of morals and ethics, not imposing a standard on them. The oath and the law aren't, to my mind, standards of measurement. They're aspirations. If we're measured against the scout oath and law, we're all going to be lacking in one way or another. We're always going to come up short and that's never all that encouraging. If we look at the ideals of the oath and law as aspirations, something to journey towards, we can mark our progress along the way. Now, that may be a form of measurement, but it's different than being held to a higher standard. It's advancing to a destination. We don't mark our progress in miles yet to travel, but in the number that we have crossed, and that's always a positive number and it keeps getting bigger, And I think there's a difference there. Instead of looking at what we lack, we look at what we've gained. It may seem a fine distinction, but I think it's important when we're working with scouts. Nobody else gets to measure our progress as individuals because nobody else knows us well enough. We'd look within, see where we started and where we are, and we judge for ourselves. Nobody else gets to judge because nobody's reached the 100% mark in any point of the scout oath and law. So the practical application of this idea in scouting is calling on the developing internal standard in each scout and asking him how he judges himself. Did he do his best? Can he honestly say that he's progressed in his expectations?

Developing the capacity to be honest with ourselves, to learn to internalize the higher and better standards, is very important work. In other words, there's only one standard and one judge, the one that we have in our hearts and minds. When a boy is faced with a difficult situation or decision, we want him to have a solid, moral and ethical internal standard to call on. We build that capacity by collaborating with it, by asking questions and getting a boy to learn and listen to that standard to find the answers. Now, in our judgment, some boys behave better than others. but what about their own judgment? The quiet, attentive boy at your meeting: he may be calling on about 3% of his capacities to be able to be quiet and attentive. The noisy, distracted boy at your meeting may be calling on 110% of his capacity. If we hold them both to the same external standard, I think we miss the point. It's easy to create normative behavior in scouts. I can do it in seconds by just raising my voice and looming. you know what I'm talking about.

But I'm not so much interested in normative behavior as I am in. what's going on inside? Is the boy striving towards becoming a better person? Is he internalizing the morals and ethics that will serve him and everyone he comes in contact to for the rest of his life? And I think to find that out we need to talk with him, We need to ask him those questions. And finally, I'll add that I'm in no way suggesting that, if we look at the scout, oath and law not as an external standard but as an aspiration, that that consciences bad behavior. not at all. What I am saying is that our work and the aim of what we're doing is to take that ethical and moral standard and to help boys internalize it so that they can call on it when the decisions of life come along that they need to make. Jeff Zook writes from Oxnard, California, Troupe 222. And he says: thank you very much for the great information found on your blog. I'm a subscriber and a scouter and therefore I'm always learning. My question is about the troop meeting plan. We have a mid-sized troop of about 35 boys and we encourage the patrol method. I am having difficulty, though, in getting the senior patrol leader to send out the troop meeting plan to his patrol leaders early enough in the week so that they know what's happening and what to plan for. We even have a brief meeting with the patrol leaders and the senior patrol leader after every meeting to discuss next week's plans, And I quietly put the emphasis on getting the troop meeting plan out early. This suggestion has been offered by me many times. The result is usually a troop meeting plan being sent out the night before or sometimes the day of the troop meeting. Any suggestions offered to help our scouts understand the importance of that kind of planning and getting everybody to understand and know what's being planned? Well, first of all, thank you, Jeff, for being in touch and thanks for the kind words there. I think that this whole idea of planning and preparation and getting meetings off the ground and boys doing it is something that I hear about time and time again, So it's not just you. This is something that we really need to work at as scout leaders. A lot of times it's our whole job in working with and training the youth leaders to be able to make these things happen, And I've come to look at it like this: Think of four things. Think of planning, preparation, structure and content. Now, planning is something that we talk about a lot, And I think we talk about it to the point where we overemphasize it. Planning is really two things. Let's just break it down. It's deciding what to do and who's going to do it, And there's a few other associated logistical things in there, like what do I need to do it and where are we going to do it, But simply it's what to do and who's going to do it. That's a process that takes a few minutes at the most. Preparation is something we don't talk about as much because we kind of think it's part of planning and leave it at that. I'm starting to work with my patrol leaders counsel to separate these two things out. Instead of a 45 minute meeting around a table where they're quote, unquote- planning, how about if they spend about 10 minutes planning and the rest of the time preparing? This means getting up from that table and putting your hands on the materials and the gear and whatever you need to work out the way your meeting's going to work and then getting with it and starting to prepare- actually prepare for that. I think what we've understood in the past is that the patrol leaders, counsel would get together and plan and then the scouts with responsibilities at the next meeting would prepare on their own time and just kind of do that individually. and hey, you know, sometimes it would happen, but most of the time they would remember maybe 10 minutes before they got to the meeting or maybe after they got to the meeting and the senior patrol, everybody reminded them. even if the senior patrol leaders done his job and called them and things. the preparation step just doesn't happen a lot of the time. So to focus on that, perhaps the thing we ought to do is introduce the idea that planning and preparation are two separate steps and then make sure that they have time to work on the preparation part of their plans. The two other terms that we introduced: the first was structure. This is kind of like the schedule, the framework of a meeting or an outing What's going to happen and when it's going to happen. This is usually a fairly set structure and it's not something that the patrol leaders counsel has to invent. It's basically the same schedule for every meeting. So if they don't have to invent a structure, they can pay more attention to the content of what they're doing, And content I guess we could describe as just the actual things they're doing, you know, tying knots or packing packs or cooking or hiking or whatever. What many of us are asking our patrol leaders counsel to do is to start with a blank sheet and to invent the structure and the content and then to develop a plan, And we almost never talk about preparing. Inventing structures and content is kind of heavy lifting for scouts. That's the point where they are staring at each other across the table and wondering what to do. The program gives them most of the structure that they need and gives them most of the content that they need. Now, if they want to invent something, certainly they can. But instead of having to do that all the time, they can choose to use that existing content and structure. In fact, they will use existing content and structure a lot of the time because that's what scouts do And most of it's already set up and ready to go. It's all in the handbook. So maybe the answer to your question, Jeff, is to stop thinking about plans and structure and content so much and start thinking more about preparation. We start with this framework, the big schedule of trips and meetings. We see the content that fits into that. We plan by making sure that everybody has a role and we spend the lion's share of the time preparing rather than concerning ourselves with the other things. So when your patrol leaders, counsel is working together, let's make a clear division between all four of those things- the structure, the content, the planning and the preparation- and think about really capitalizing and focusing on the preparation piece, because I think that's the part that is often missing and it's assumed that it's just part of planning, but I don't think scouts assume that. I think it's helpful for us to create an environment where they can not only plan but they can prepare. Okay,