And now for you, Scoutmaster.

So, alright, so there's three pieces of string. And they want to go into McDonald's and get a milkshake. And one goes in and the guy at the counter goes, well, are you a piece of string? And he goes, yes, I am. He goes, well, we don't serve string in here. You'll have to leave. Well, that's not very nice. So he goes and tells his friends. So the second piece of string, he goes in there. He goes, well, can I have a milkshake? And he goes, well, aren't you a piece of string? He goes, yes. The guy told your friend. We don't serve string in here. Now, get the heck out. So he leaves and he tells his friends. And the third piece of string goes, well, that's not right. And I really want a milkshake. So he disguises himself. So he ties himself up in a knot. And he frays the top of his head to make it look like hair. And then he goes into McDonald's. He goes, can I have a milkshake? And the guy goes, well, aren't you a piece of string? He goes, I'm afraid not. And he goes, I probably haven't. And he goes, well, aren't you a piece of string? I'm afraid not. I'm sorry. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clark Green. And as you can tell, it's a very special edition of the Scoutmaster Podcast because this is podcast number 50. Yep, I was up all night with the timpani and the horns. Not really. But I thought it was worthy of a fanfare. Well, there you go. Thank you to everyone who's listened to the podcast over the past year. This is podcast number 50 and this makes the podcast just about as old as I am. Well, not really. But yeah, you get the idea, right? So let's do a little catching up. It's been a holiday week and I hope everyone enjoyed their holiday. Over on iTunes, Davey Gravy left this. Davey Gravy. That's right. You heard me right. I listen to every podcast and there's something new every time. The jokes? They're good also. Well, there's no accounting for taste, I suppose. But thank you, Davey Gravy, for getting in touch through iTunes. Larry had this to say about our last podcast, podcast number 49. Boy, you dug yourself a hole there. That's right. That's right. That's right. We went into the deep, dark past in the last podcast. We had the audio portion of the Patrol Method film strip. And I guess I tried to explain to those of you who've never seen a film strip exactly what it is. And Larry also said that I took out the boops and that Betty will not be pleased. And there is no way I'm going to try and explain who Betty Boop is. Oh, my. Well, thanks for getting in touch, Larry. Listen, some of you received by email this past month the Scoutmaster newsletter. And this is something new that I'm going to roll out this year. It's going to be a monthly email newsletter that's basically a digest of what's going on on the podcast and on the blog. And it will be around a central theme of some important scouting subject. And it will also include a giveaway from one of my affiliate sponsors. So I would love to have you go ahead and sign up for the Scoutmaster newsletter. You can go to the blog at scoutmaster.typepad.com and look in the upper right-hand corner. And you'll see a sign-up block for the newsletter. Just enter your email there. And you will receive the newsletter once a month. And the next one will be coming out right about the middle of January. In this podcast, we have an interview with Kevin Callen. Kevin Callen lives in Peterborough, Ontario, in one of my favorite parts of the world, where we have gone for the past many years to go up and do a canoe trip with our venture crew. That's part of our troop. And I've read a lot of Kevin's material. And we've seen his videos, Happy Camper videos, on the podcast. And he was gracious enough to sit down with me and do an interview here recently. There will be some links and things mentioned in the interview. And those will be on the post that contains this podcast at scoutmaster.typepad.com. And if you're truly interested in Ontario and canoeing, I've been up there a number of times. And I can point you to some good resources. And just email me, ClarkGreen, C-L-A-R-K-E-G-R-E-E-N, at gmail.com. And I can help you sort out what goes on up there and how to put a trip together for your troop. So that's an awful lot to get done in one podcast. And I think we should get started, shall we? Today I'm talking with Canadian author and canoe enthusiast Kevin Callen, who is also known as the Happy Camper. And we've seen some of his videos on the Scoutmaster blog before. How are you doing, Kevin? How are you doing, Clark? I am happy. Are you happy? I am ecstatic because I'm talking to you. And your book about the Algonquin Provincial Park and canoe routes in Algonquin was really instrumental into us building a program where we bring our scouts up that way. Well, that's great. What do you think of Algonquin? It's an amazingly different place. I'm convinced you could go paddling in Algonquin and around there for 20 years and never see the same water twice. Oh, definitely. Yeah, there's lots of places to go. That's the nice thing about the park. I mean, I only live an hour away from it. So that's the nicest thing, too, is I can just head up and paddle. My favorite place is the Nipissing River on the northwest corner. And it's just one of those tranquil little trout rivers that's hard to get to. It's got old-growth forest with old-growth pine hanging. It's just a beautiful place. Because it's like a transition zone. The neat thing about Algonquin is that the forest ecology that's around that area continues south through southern Ontario or southeastern Ontario and then right into the main area of the United States. And it's this sort of corridor that's a lot of wildlife travel. They've figured out the last few years. They've tracked wolves and everything else and moose that travel this corridor all the time. And it's kind of neat that we actually have it. And now let me get this right. Is it portaging or portaging? Well, it depends on where you live. It doesn't matter how you say it. Everybody hates one. Bill Macy said it best when he said people actually like portaging is either a liar or crazy. I've got to say, though, the only thing that I think is left, though, that keeps wilderness wild is a long portage. Because you think about it, if you go three miles with a canoe on your head and a pack on your shoulder and stuff, what you're going to get at the end is going to be worth it. Oh, yeah. I don't care how people get into the woods, to be quite honest. I'm not a purist. But I know a lot of people that drive the ATVs and stuff. And I'll go up to them. I said, look, you always get on my case that you go into this lake and it's not what it was a few years back. The reason why is it's too easy for you to get into here now. And as soon as it's too easy to get in, then the wilderness concept is gone and the trout are gone. And if you actually put a canoe on your back and portage for three miles, then what you're going to get is going to be worth it. And I think that they're not getting that. They all want everything easy for them. And the nice thing is if you meet someone at the end of the portage, a really long portage, if you actually do see someone, they're going to be just like you. Because they actually went through the same thing that you just did. Well, and we should explain for the non-canoe heads out there, a portage or a portage where you take all your gear, but basically you're backpacking with a canoe. Yeah. In fact, my wife loves backpacking. We always do a backpacking trip every year. But I always curse at her. I go, you know, this is the longest portage ever created. All you're doing is walking with a pack on. Yeah. There's no paddling involved at all. Come on. No. What's with that? There's a lot more canoeing in Ontario, isn't there? Oh, yeah. We've got so many bodies of water that really the canoe was invented for the landscape. Or some say the landscape was invented for the canoe. But it opened up. Historically, it opened up Canada, especially Quebec and Ontario. And, you know, Americans got, I guess, the chuck wagon and the cowboy hat, whatever, got out of the west. We had the voyager canoe. So for a little bit of driving, if you're coming from New York State, Ohio, Pennsylvania, or any of the New England states, you can be in canoe paradise pretty quickly up over the line in Ontario. Well, yeah. If you're going from that area, you've got not only Algonquin, you've got Tomogamy, which is actually just an hour or maybe a couple hours north of Algonquin. And it's a vast wilderness in endless rivers. The Sturgeon River is one of my favorite, which is, oh, you know, for three days, it's almost continual class three or class one, class two rapids. And you won't see anybody. There's you were talking a little bit about the Upper Ottawa. Yeah, the Upper Ottawa, it was a kind of a miracle. My wife actually, my wife has strict rules when we go on our holiday canoe trips. I'm not allowed to work and write about them. My daughter was turning six years old and she said, I want to go on another canoe trip for seven days. I want to go somewhere we haven't gone before, which is not that easy because I go everywhere. And I wanted to be an easy trip and not a lot of portaging. Well, the Ottawa River, I never thought it would be the way it is. But up from Mattawa, which is where Samuel de Champagne Park is, we started there and we paddled down to what's called Driftwood Provincial Park, which is halfway between Tomogamy and the city of Ottawa. And you could do it in five days, but we did it in seven. And there's no rapids, it's just a strong current. There was one town halfway through and we got supplies there. But we saw 12 motorboats and that's it in seven days. And we saw one other canoe group. And this is the Ottawa River. Like everybody in Canada knows the Ottawa River. So on one side you had the Laurentian Mountains and the other side you had the Ontario Bush. And it was one of those things where you think you've seen it all. And then you realize that a lot of people ask me, what's my favorite canoe trip? And it's always, it sounds bizarre, but my answer is the next one I'm going on. Because it really doesn't matter where you're going. It matters that you go, right? I think you're absolutely right. You just have to go. There's just some marvelous opportunities for people to take a group of scouts up there and not to spend a whole lot of money. And you can have a marvelous trip. Just, I guess you could probably throw a dart at a map of Ontario and just go just about anywhere, couldn't you? Oh, yeah. And that's the nice thing about it, too, is that there are so many other places outside of parks you can paddle. Even in northwestern Ontario, a couple of years ago, we went down what's called the Kopka River. And it's south of Wabakimi. Now, you can get to Wabakimi just by train from Toronto, the Toronto train station, for heaven's sakes. But they drop you off. But we went down the Kopka. And it was one of those rivers that not many people knew. In fact, it was Cliff Jacobson, an American, that she told me about it. And we went down that river and we paddled to Nipigon, the north shore of Nipigon, which is an oasis. It's just so beautiful. And it's one of the inland sort of Great Lakes. And we spent five weeks paddling. And we weren't in the far north. We didn't spend a fortune. In fact, it didn't cost as much at all to do that river. So there's lots of places to go. And it's pretty cheap. And any place that there's good paddling, usually there's going to be an outfitter nearby. Yeah, there usually is. And there's a lot of information nowadays on the computer, obviously, to where to get the information and if it's a good outfitter and that sort of thing. But most likely in areas like really well-used areas like Nipigon, Tamagami, even Wabakimi or Quiddicko, there's at least a half a dozen outfitters that are going to help you out. You know, I mean, I don't own a canoe. I do have a lovely paddle, which is kind of like having a leash without a puppy. But sometimes I think a paddle is more important to you than the canoe. You think about it. You paddle 10,000 strokes a day on a good paddle day. So, yeah, I'd sleep with my paddle if I were you. It is really pretty simple to get in with an outfitter and to find your way up there. You know, you're working on a book right now about some of the places to go canoeing in Ontario. Yeah, what I did is I wrote eight guidebooks throughout my years on where to go paddling in Quebec and Ontario. And then my publisher said, can you do the best of like the Beatles White Album or whatever it's called? I don't know. But I said, yeah, I can do that. But I'd like to add new ones as well. And what they did is that I chose 40 of my favorite routes in Ontario and then 10 new ones. And that will be out in March. And it's called Ontario's Best Canoe Roots. But there's some new ones, though, that really might interest you because it's not really being written about before. And there's an old canoe route in the south end of Tomagamy. There's a place called Chinacoochee. Now, there's a place near Chinacoochee. This is just north of Ogonkin Park that is called Killarney Park. Now, that is the most scenic place in Ontario, Killarney Park. It's got quartzite mountains. It's got turquoise water. But there's a place near there, near Sudbury, called Chinacoochee. And it's a south access to Tomagamy. But what I did is I went up to Chinacoochee. Now, they created that into a new park back in 1999. But they haven't done much to it. So there's no reservation period. Basically, nobody really goes there. And what I did is I went up through Chinacoochee River. But then I hooked up into Tomagamy. So I went through a bunch of Tomagamy lakes. And then I hooked up to the Sturgeon River. And I went down the Sturgeon River back to Chinacoochee. And it's six, maybe eight days. But it's one of the best canoe trips I can ever imagine. Because you've got a little bit about everything. You've got amazing scenery, like the Quartzite Mountains. You've got a river that actually is doable. It's not a dangerous river. It's a very doable river. But it's a lot of fun. And then you've got the big, huge white pine and Tomagamy you get to paddle through. And it's fantastic. And just make sure you go with a good person. Social dynamics is more important on a trip. You guys know that more than I do. I suppose you could go on the trip you just described with somebody you didn't get along with very well. And you wouldn't really be looking at the Quartzite Mountains all that much, would you? Because here's the thing. When you're in the wilderness, you are who you are. There's no faking your character. There's no facade. And if you don't like your boss, for example, the best thing to do is take them on a canoe trip in Maine. Because they can't fake themselves. And I love that. I love that about wilderness. I am who I am out there. And you can't challenge nature or it will bite you back really bad. You have to sort of immerse yourself with it and become, in one sense, living out there. So the people you're with, now, even if you go canoe tripping with someone and you never meet them for 40 years, you finally meet them, you're still friends. Yeah. No, you're right about that. That's for sure. Is that route that you were talking about one of those old routes that you've opened back up? Yeah. It's an old canoe route called a Nostogwin route, an old native route. There's another one that I did this year up by Bisco Tasting, up by Mississauga River. It's sort of central, north-central Ontario, north of Lake Huron. And a couple of places up there. But one was Grey Owl. He traveled that area a lot when he was Archie Blaney, when he was a ranger. And he talks a lot about the Mississauga River, which is a beautiful river to do. But then I'm thinking, well, he had to have gone other places. And I went to talk to a lot of natives up there. And they said, well, there was an old canoe route that was south of Bisco Tasting, where he lived. And it links up to what's called the Spanish River. And so I did a 12-day solo canoe loop through there and retraced it and found an old cabin that was kind of neat that I was told that he stayed at. And sure enough, the little scribblings inside, Archie Blaney. And it was kind of neat. Now, we had huge problems here this summer. I'm not sure if you guys had, but we had no water. There was no water at all. And the weirdest thing is, because of that, I had to change my route all the time, places I thought I could go and I couldn't, which was kind of neat because I found other places that I would never have found. And I found this old lodge that was built in 1939 for the prince that was supposed to arrive. And the locals had built it. Oh, yeah. I read you did an article about that, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. And the neat thing about it is that there's a story about it, whether it's true or not. But I guess the locals say that he got off the train and the black flies were so bad, he went back on the train. And they were so mad that he did that, they burned the lodge underground. There's nothing left of it except an old chimney. And I actually found that chimney. So that was kind of neat. I just, I read that article. You reminded me of it. And it was a cool article. And then, yeah, it gets to the denouement where this royal gets off the train and is besieged by black flies. And I thought there is, if somebody doesn't know Canada, there's like a perfect Canada story right there. Oh, yeah. You know, because you got there and, oh, yeah. And I've experienced the first year we went up, we went up in June. And we learned that going in August was a lot smarter because most of the black flies and the big giant biting flies and the mosquito airplanes were pretty much all gone in August. Yeah, it's true. So if I was going to take any time off, August, September is the best time to go. I go out in June a lot, which is just insane. But I go out in June because I usually have lots of time in June. But also nobody in the right mind would be able to. I mean, these things can, like, carry a person away. They're amazing. You think of what the black fly does to you. So if you try to symbolize what northern wilderness is in the springtime, a black fly, you don't feel it by you. It slices your skin so it doesn't really hurt at first. And then it pulls your skin apart with stylets. And then it slices you again and keeps slicing until it gets to the capillaries. And then it starts lapping the blood up. And it needs to lap blood up for at least three minutes to get enough blood for protein for it to have its eggs. And then when it's done, it pulls its head out. But during that time, it spits saliva in you so your blood doesn't clog late. Right. So if you actually hit the black fly while it's hitting you or biting you, you'll push all the saliva in you. And that's what irritates the wound. And you think if a million of those are doing that to you at one time, that's northern Ontario. Yeah. You know way too much about that, Kevin. Way too much. I'm going to be happy in my ignorance and come up in August. That's true. Yeah. So you do a fair amount of talking to scout groups? Yeah. I've always have. I mean, I was a scout. And I also have a lot of background in outdoor education. Back in the 80s, that's what I did. And it's almost like payback time. And throughout the years, I've always sort of volunteered to go to scout groups and give a talk. And it's usually a humorous talk. It's usually like sort of a burst of enthusiasm. This is why you guys should go out. And this is why you did go out and that sort of thing. Tell me a little bit more about Grey Owl. I don't know that a lot of people know exactly who that was and what the story is there. Well, I think a lot of scouts, scout leaders would actually look into this character and just find it very intriguing for many reasons. He was an Englishman that really didn't like where he lived, didn't like his home, didn't like his family. I'm not sure if he didn't like his family. He just he was a dreamer and he wanted to become a woodsman and become a native in Canada. So he moved over to Canada. And this is back in the, gosh, 30s, 40s. And so what he did is he disguised himself up as a native. And the natives knew the natives knew that he wasn't a true native, but they just ignored him. And they said, well, if he wants to be a native, he can be a native. But then he became a writer and then he became a conservationist. And he was one conservationist that saved the beaver from extinction, actually. He used to have a job trapping. And then one day he decided not to trap. And then he wrote books about it. And then he did films on his pet beavers that lived inside his cabin down in, you know, he was in Alberta in a cabin. And he became a legend. But the thing is, the day after he died, then the newspaper reports came out and said, oh, by the way, he wasn't a native. He was Archie Blaine. And you would think at that time, because of that, people would say, OK, well, now the Wizard of Oz is now showing itself, that sort of thing. How dare he do that? And he shunned. But he was still celebrated. He's still celebrated to this day. People are fine with the idea that he disguised. Well, now I know who to thank every time I have to pull a canoe over a beaver dam in Algona. Yeah, there you go. I'll be thinking about him. I got to tell you, that's a good story. I paddled in the United States once. Oh, no more than once. But I do remember going to Maine in the Outer Randax. And it's a busy place. And I was lining up to go paddling. But I went to this woman ahead of me. And I said, well, so what's so special about this river? Everybody seems to be lining up to do this route. And she said, well, this is really good because it's got those things they have in Canada. What do they call their, like, they make mounds of sticks. I went, beavers? Yeah, yeah. There's some beaver dams on this river. I went, you're kidding me. And I packed up my stuff and went back to Algona. It's like... You mentioned bears. I think that there are some people below the parallel who think Canada is just crawling with them. And it's a clear and present danger. What can you tell us about bears up in Ontario and environs? Well, we have the black bear here. We don't have the grizzly. It's not really an issue if you look at it statistically. Since 1936, there's only been seven deaths from a predacious black bear in Ontario. Actually, I think even Canada, actually. There's so much more of a chance of you getting hit on the highway by a car than a black bear attacking you. The only problem is I'm very bear phobic. So I'm not going to be going and telling you that actually, you know, it's safe. You're okay out there. Don't worry about it. Because I'm still just so bear phobic out there as well. But I like the idea that bears scare people out there. It keeps a little bit more willingness out there, just like the black flies. It keeps people on their toes. If you see a bear, it's a nice experience. It's a nice wildlife sighting. And usually the bear, as soon as it sees you, will be gone in a second. If you spent your life not going into the wilderness because you're afraid of bears and then you got hit on the highway, it's not worth it. I'd rather actually spend my life in the wilderness. And maybe one day, if it ever happens, that I get killed by a bear in the woods, well, it's better than getting killed on the highway. And it's so much easier for the survivors because, you know, there's not much to deal with once you're gone. No, that's true. I mean, it's quite funny, too. My wife always tells me to never tell these stories, but predacious bears, how they kill you is they take your head off because they think you're a loose guy, right? And so the studies show that even the people that got killed by these bears really didn't feel too much. Okay, so I'm sure we've made everybody very comfortable about going into the woods up there. When I was in Algonquin, at one point, I was talking to one of the rangers there. Some of those guys go for several years between bear sightings, and they're in the park every day. Yeah, it's funny. I see bears a lot. A Cree elder once told me that the bear was my spirit, and I said, can I change that? Is there any way I can do that? But I was wondering why the bears always came into my camp. And he said, well, the bears know you're afraid of them, and that's why they're harassing you more. And he taught me a lot, but the bear story I had this summer in Tomogamy, it's a classic, a family adventure. But the last morning, we woke up. We were on an island, and thankfully, I woke up early, and I see this bear swimming to the island. And what that meant to me was this bear had got food on that island before, so it's coming to this island for food from our stuff. And I'm waking everybody up and say, okay, we're going to have to deal with a bear encounter here so everybody get prepared. And my buddy was there, and he goes, well, my kids haven't seen a bear yet. So could you wait before you scare it off? Could you wait for a while? I went, you're kidding me, right? I go, I want to scare this bear. He goes, well, wait until it gets halfway. And I said, look, once it's halfway, that's it. I'm going to start shooting the bear bangers and stuff. Okay, okay, that's an agreement. So we get all the kids, and they're watching the bear swim towards us, and everybody's excited. And it happened to be the morning of my daughter's birthday. And so she's all excited. And then so the bear's got halfway, and I said, okay, I'm doing the call. So I get the bear banger, shoot it over, nothing. The bear just keeps swimming towards us. I went, oh, this is not good. And then I shoot the flare, and the bear just looks at me. Well, then I ended up getting my paddle and started bashing the paddle against the rock. And that worked. The noise of that scared the bear off. But I broke the paddle, and the guy that was with, he made me that paddle. And he looks at me, he goes, why did you do that? I go, I was saving your life. And my daughter right on cue goes, dad, it was my birthday, and that bear was coming to my party. How dare you scare him away? Yeah. So honestly, I was the only one afraid of this bear. So I thought it saved their lives. Your book's A Happy Camper. Tell me a little bit about it. That was an enjoyable book. Years ago, I wrote a book called The Ways of the Wild. I think it was called. I'm not sure of it. And then I wanted to redo it into a how-to book. And I ended up doing a little bit more sense of humor to it. I think it sold like 10,000 copies in the first month or something. Which in Canada, by the way, is huge. Because the best seller in Canada is 5,000 copies. And I was a little nervous about it because it's how-to. So I'm telling people what to do. But everybody says I'm a professional, but I'm not. I call myself a person that just loves camping, loves going out the outdoors. And I learn from experiences. So the book was based on my experiences. So it was basically, this is what not to do because I did it. And then after that, they wanted me to do A Happy Camper 2. And I kind of didn't want to do A Happy Camper 2. So I did another book called Will and His Pleasures. And it was more about why we go and why we should keep going. And I really enjoyed writing that book. That sort of changed into a thing I'm doing last year called A Happy Camper Online Show. And it's at kevincallum.com. And it's basically just a bunch of videos, how-to videos. But it's all done with humor. And just yesterday, we launched the newest one. It was all how to choose a good camp hack. And it's just silliness. We have a green screen behind me. And the weather's changing every time I change my hat. But it's a lot of fun. Now, Scouts, actually, they just contacted us. And we just gave them the okay to put all the videos they want on their own website. And they are really great. I've put a couple of them on the Scoutmaster blog. And I've gotten really favorable comments about them. But they're hilarious. I really do enjoy those. And you've got four Water Walker Film Awards to your credit. Yeah, Water Walker is a thing they have in Canada. Well, it's all across the world, actually. But it's based in Ottawa. And it's people from all over put their canoe films in for awards. And I've won a few of them. There's so many places in the bush. You know, there's so many stories up there. How did we find the film? A YouTube site called Callen Canoe. Callen Canoe. If you go to Callen Canoe, there's like endless videos. I always take a camera with me when I go on trips. And I do a lot of solo trips. And I just have the camera and the canoe. Yeah, the Bisco Tasting route I did this year is all online on that site, too. If I'm headed up to Ontario and I want to get like a taste of some of the canoe routes and some of the things up there, is there a good online resource for that? It's explore-mag, M-A-G. And it's Explore Magazine that I write for. But I have my blog on there. And what I do a lot on that blog is I write a lot of my trip journal notes. So scouts would actually get a lot of that. And even one trip I did a couple years ago was up by Elliott Lake where we reopened a canoe trip that closed in the 1980s. And rainbow trout were stocked there in 1942. And they self-sustained themselves. And we got into these lakes where we're catching 10-pound rainbows that had never seen a fly. I'm hosting a contest that is called the Classic Canadian Adventure. But if you win, and anybody in North America can win, you and your three buddies go seven days with me. And we go to Ottawa. We go whitewater rafting, whitewater kayaking. We go flying through Barron Canyon and the Gawkin Park with the M&R turbo plane. So, yeah, we go to Bonachere Park and all these other things. So it's kind of a neat contest. And so some scouts might be interested in that. Let me make sure I understood exactly where do we find the contest. But if you just go to my blog, there's a write-up on it. It's a video. Hey, I'd love to do this again sometime. No problem. And actually, we can even, if I'm in a Gawkin Park on a canoe trip, I can actually do the same thing. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, it's called Began. It's a satellite system that a company let us borrow. Wow. I do a lot of TV stuff like that or radio stuff where I'm actually live in the park. And they even do it by way of video. So you can actually see me in the park. Are you going out at all in the winter? Yeah, in January I am. I'm doing a winter trip in the end of January. In Agonquin, actually. Oh, that would be really cool. Yeah, it'd be fun. So, Kevin, thanks so much for joining us. Had a great time talking to you. Hope we interested some people into checking out canoeing up there in Ontario. Oh, no problem, Clark. Thanks a lot. And I hope to see you out there on the portage or portage or whatever you want to call it. How about this? How about this? Next time I'm up there, I'm going to find you and we'll head over to... Tim Hortons. Cup of coffee. Maple dip. I owe you one. That sounds good. Thanks very much. Thanks a lot.