Scoutmaster Podcast 81

And now to you, Scoutmaster. So you know, it's not the act of making a podcast that makes you crazy.

Podcasting doesn't make you crazy Now, it just makes your craziness a little more accessible to the rest of the world. How about that? Hey, this is podcast number 81. Music. Hey, welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green.

I'm back. How about that? Yeah, We had a big trip and about three weeks of traveling and scouting. Guess where There's a little musical hint. You got it yet. That's right.

Yes, we were in the wonderful country of Switzerland, at Kondersteg International Scout Center for a week with a group of our Scouts, And what a wonderful experience. That was preceded by a week of vacation with my lovely wife in the same town in Kondersteg, And that was preceded by a week at summer camp.

So, basically, I've been pretty much out of circulation for the past three or four weeks in between all of the traveling and scouting that we got to do, And I'm just so happy to be back home. Well, you know, pretty happy to be back home. I had to leave some pretty marvelous places behind, But home is a pretty marvelous place too.

First of all, let's see, Now that we're back, we got a lot of cleaning up to do. First, a couple of abject apologies. That's right, I had some podcasts and posts and things like that ready to go out and programmed to go out over the time I was gone.

The posts did pretty well, The podcast, oh my. I put a couple of phantom podcasts out.

What I had hoped to be able to do was, in the time that I was traveling, be able to, you know, put together a couple of quick podcasts for you, And I had things set up Well, it didn't work out, And so there's been a number of you have been writing in about the fact that the podcast seems to have disappeared from iTunes and that you couldn't download the podcast, And I really apologize for all the frustration. But, like I said, you know I was away, I didn't have web access And actually, to tell you the God's honest truth, I wasn't all that concerned because, man, if you've never been to Switzerland, wow, what a place, Just an incredible country with.

We were in the heart of the Bernese Alps And you know, you just kind of wake up in a state of slack-jawed awe every day and you get to do some marvelous hikes and meet some wonderful people. Kondersteg International Scout Center has been operating since the 1920s and it is a center for scouts from all over the world who come and visit during the summer- and all throughout the year, but mainly during the summer- And just to participate in some scout brotherhood and to take in the wonderful sights around the town of Kondersteg. We met scouts from the United Kingdom.

We met scouts from Russia- How about that Russia? We met scouts from Portugal, from Ireland, from an incredible number of countries all around the world- Brazil, And what a wonderful, wonderful time.

So here's a couple of quick takeaways for you. Scouting is still a relevant, wonderful worldwide movement and the people that you get to meet are just wonderful folks. We all share much more in common than we do in the way of differences.

So the world is sometimes a troubled and difficult place, but as long as there are scouts in it, there's going to be that bright point of light out there. The other big takeaway that I'll repeat at Infinatum is that if you set your mind to it, if your scouts get excited and motivated about doing something- anything from a big international trip like this just to, you know, a weekend camping trip- you can do it. It can happen, And it also takes us a little vision, a little leadership on the part of your scouts and it will happen.

And I don't normally call out my scouts by name or refer to them personally, but I've got to tell you the crew chief that we selected for this particular trip, Robert H, and is just a wonderful leader and he put a lot of energy into it and I think he had the best time of all the scouts that attended that trip. So kudos to you, Robert H, for having done a wonderful job in making that trip happen for your fellow scouts and for us adults too.

So I'll have much more- probably more than you want to hear- to say about that whole thing in future- podcasts and blog posts and things. But let's get down to brass tacks. I've got interviews lined up for this fall with authors and things.

I've got gear reviews and hopefully within the next week or so, we'll see the return of our weekly caption contest on Tuesdays. I got lots of nice messages of welcome home. Thanks, folks. And oh, I should mention I have an interview in the works about the Journey to Excellence program.

Now, if you're not familiar with the Journey to Excellence program or you haven't heard of it, well, get on the BSA national website. Search for Journey to Excellence and you'll see that it is the new unit evaluation program that promises to actually be one of a very revolutionary tool for scout leaders to use to work on their unit effectiveness.

I have interview in the works with one of the volunteers who developed this program at a national level, and so what I would like to do in preparation for that interview is hear your questions or comments about the Journey to Excellence program. I can pass those questions and comments onto him and see what we can learn. I heard from Kent Jennings, who is from South Africa. He says I'm a member of the Orion rover crew and one of our rovers attended Kent Jennings. Great to see you advertising scouting. I enjoy your blog.

It's great to see others who are willing to write Yours and scouting Kent Jennings. Well, thanks, Kent. I did not run into anybody from South Africa while I was at Kent Jennings, at least not that I can remember, but I certainly appreciate you being in touch. Thundering Thor got back in touch. He said thank you for giving the National Park Service programs for scouts some well-deserved publicity And if you missed that, it's a blog post. There are national park service programs that recognize scouts and give you some activities that you can do while visiting national parks.

Thor goes on to say it's a wonderful program, not only for Boy Scouts but for Cub Scouts and Girl Scouts of all levels. The National Park Service Rangers and personnel have been helpful and always happy to lend a hand with our scouts. The Junior Ranger programs available at each national park service site also make for lots of fun. Thanks again for all you do And, PS, the Green Bar Bill podcast was awesome.

Well, thank you for being in touch again, Thor. It's always good to hear from everybody.

So we're going at light with this podcast. There's a lot of threads to pick up and things to take care of, you know, as well as keeping up with the blog and the podcast and the scout troop, So you're going to have to be patient with me.

I did have a recent discussion about discipline in scouting that I think be useful to talk about for a little bit, And we're going to do that in Scoutmaster's ship in seven minutes or less, which is the biggest fib going. As far as the podcast is concerned, I think we'll probably go over seven minutes, but hey, And that's going to do it for the podcast this time.

So let's get started, shall we Scoutmaster's ship in seven minutes or less.

This coming April marks something over 30 years as a scout leader, as an adult volunteer, And it's been a wonderful ride. But there are always challenges and there are difficulties, and some of these surround discipline in scouting.

I mean, we're dealing with boys at a very formative part during a very formative part of their lives, who are pushing limits and trying and testing and doing things, And we do have to have some kind of discipline and we have to be able to exercise discipline and to address situations as they arise. This is not, you know, one of the fun parts of being a scout leader. It can be very daunting and frustrating and difficult and discouraging, But if we're prepared ahead of time, like most things, we're going to be able to meet these challenges head-on and to dispatch them in a way that is both positive for our scouts and is not too trying for ourselves.

This subject came up in a little back-and-forth discussion I had via Facebook and somebody had asked me a couple of questions about a discipline problem they were having and we got to talking back-and-forth and I want to take a moment to treat the idea of discipline and scouting with some broad underlying concepts- And if you're familiar with the podcast, that's one of my favorite phrases- broad underlying concepts. I can give you some specifics and some suggestions, but what you really need is you need to be grounded in the broad underlying concepts. That will help you dispense and deal with and make discipline in your scout unit a viable and useful and positive, positive thing. I read a recent posting at Ask Andy and Andy is a scout commissioner who has kind of an advice column at the United States Scouts Service Project website.

Very easy to find: Just Google Ask Andy and Scouts and you'll find his columns and there's several years of them there. But he had a couple of statements that I think are very useful.

So my tip of the campaign had to Andy. He said this: in the BSA adult unit level, volunteers may guide scouts in establishing a troop culture of order and correct behavior. However, punishment in any form is not a part of the scouting experience. The absence of overt punishment does not mean suggest or imply that actions have no consequences. All actions have consequences. They're commensurate with the nature of the action.

The Scoutmaster is ultimately responsible for the scout's behavior and comportment. If the Scoutmaster is unsuccessful in finding the best in a boy and bringing it out, then he can ask for help. If the Scoutmaster is unable to understand the current behavior, they ought to be replaced with someone who can fulfill the responsibilities of the position. That kind of helps identify some of the concepts of discipline in scouting. I'm going to keep hammering on one key statement: Punishment is just not a part of the scouting experience.

Some of you may not like that particular statement and may not think that you can maintain discipline without the threat of punishment, but you can, And we're going to talk about how We want to remember that. Discipline means to teach. It has similar roots to the word disciple. Discipline does not mean exclusively to punish. Effective discipline is consistent and requires patience. Effective discipline doesn't stifle scouts.

It gives them dependable foundation from which to grow and mature, Because we have to remember what their job is. You're dealing with boys, if you're in a scout troop, who are between the ages of 10 and a half and 17.. Part of their job at this age is to find boundaries.

The way they find boundaries is they walk right up to them and then they jump over them. They test you, and they're not testing you personally. They're seeing if the world is going to live up to these promises And because they're not testing you personally, it's important that areas of discipline be divorced from your personal emotional reactions. I mean, you're going to have some predictable emotional reactions: You're going to get angry, You're going to get frustrated. Oftentimes you'll be embarrassed, You'll be sad, You'll be disappointed, But these are not very helpful emotions when it comes to discipline.

Now, if you're listening to this podcast and you're a volunteer scout leader, chances are very good, chances are that you're also a parent, And when I say that your child's testing of boundaries and things like that is not personal, you may not believe me, Because they know how to make it personal, don't they? And it can be very, very harmful. It can be really, really upsetting.

The thing is that, as a parent and as a volunteer scout leader and having observed all of these processes for a good many years, there ain't nothing special about your boy or your daughter, because all of them, all of them- do this. It's part of their job, And I think understanding that helps us divorce our reaction to what they do from our emotions.

We need to connect actions with consequences. That's important. There are two types of consequences to any action. One is natural and one is logical. Natural consequences are automatic and they really don't require our intervention. I'll give you a simple example.

If I was told to bring rain gear with me on a camping trip and I don't bring it and it rains and I get wet, that's a natural consequence. If somebody says to me, do not touch that, it is hot, and I touch it and I get burned, that's a natural consequence. There are also logical consequences, and those logical consequences are something that we may impose. And you may think that I am trying to avoid the word punish, but I'm not trying to avoid it, because what I'm talking about is not aimed at punishing behavior, It's aimed at correcting it.

So let's talk about that for a moment. It's not aimed at punishing behavior, It's aimed at correcting it.

So part of discipline is about correcting wrong behavior, but part of discipline is also reinforcing good actions. Whenever it's possible, as scout leaders, I think we need to rely on natural consequences and we let scouts deal with the fallout of their actions. We don't rescue them when it's not an issue of physical safety or propriety. We don't rescue them If they make bad plans and it's not going to threaten their health or safety.

We should let them deal with the fallout and do it in a very understanding way, and not lord it over them and tell them: I told you so, but you know, just say, hey, been there. This is really frustrating, isn't it?

You didn't plan very well and now you're really frustrated. So what's our way out of the situation?

In the best case scenario, natural consequences run their course without much intervention from adult leadership at all, Other than to, you know, reflect and discuss on the situation and see if we can turn it into some kind of a teachable moment. When the actions of scouts create an immediate threat to health or safety, those actions have to be stopped immediately, And then scouts need to work with the logical consequences of their bad actions.

Now, the discussion that spurred this part of the podcast surrounded the improper use of matches on camping trips. I mean, what would you do if you found freshly burnt matches and match books in the area you were camping?

And this is obviously a situation where we can't allow the natural consequences of the actions to do the job Because somebody or something could get burned, and that's really just not an option. Step one is to take this issue to the patrol leaders council and ask them what the natural consequences of sex actions would be. Tell us we found these matches, match books, Somebody's playing with matches, Somebody's not using them responsibly. You know. Tell me what the possibilities are here. Tell me what could happen if we allow this to go on.

And you know they're going to think about it a little bit. They're going to come up with well, somebody could set fire, Somebody could burn themselves, Somebody could threaten everyone's safety with this, And you know these are fairly self-evident things. But you don't want to preach at your patrol leaders council. What you want to do is you want to poke at them with some questions and get them to identify things as self-evident as they might be, And you want them to be able to put these things into words. Ask them what they think logical consequences of the actions should be, And remember that punishment is not an option.

Now I've been all around the block with the whole punishment thing, because our natural reaction, our natural reaction to bad actions, is to default to this punishment model. You know well, hey, you didn't wear your neck a chip giving me 10 push ups.

You didn't do thus and so, or you did thus and so, so now you're going to be grounded, or you're going to be denied privileges and you're going to be dismissed from the troop, or you're going to be suspended, or there's all of these elaborate plans that we draw up and things that we think through for stuff like that. But I want you to try thinking about discipline.

Absent the option of punishing, Does your patrol leaders council need to discover who the individual actor was in this situation? Do they need to figure out who was playing with matches?

This is a pretty important question, because how is this going to play out and is it really going to be all that useful? How are they going to make that happen? Coercing a confession with the threat of punishment is not an option for us in scouting, and I got to tell you it doesn't really work. Our gut reaction is usually identifying and punishing an individual for some kind of bad action. We do this out of a sense of fairness, but more often than not that sense of fairness gets misplaced.

We can also do this out of a sense of frustration and anger, and we have to be careful about that. Scouting is a good opportunity for all of us to learn that the failing of an individual is often- now not always, but often the failure of the group to support and inform them. I got to tell you, in a situation like this and many associated situations, if the bad actor doesn't immediately identify themselves, locating the individual and getting them to fess up can be hugely counterproductive. I've tried it. I've tried it. It doesn't work very well.

I refuse to be an investigator and I refuse to be a policeman. I don't have the training skill, natural ability for any of that. I'm not going to try to interview witnesses and try and figure things out. I really don't have that ability. When we attempt to identify an individual bad actor, everything usually comes to a stop. We find the matches, we find the burnt match books, whatever.

Get the troop together. We say, okay, fellas, there's a problem here, somebody's been lighting matches and I need to know who it is, and we're going to stand right here until somebody tells me who it is.

Well, now you've so stigmatized that that you've created some real disincentive for the person to come forward. Because they're not going to come forward, you're going to get even more frustrated and a little more angry and then you might.

Hey, if we can't make this happen right now, if somebody doesn't step up and tell me who it is. We're going to pack up everything and we're going to go home. I've been there before, you know. Let me, let me take a minute. I don't want to get too diverted from the subject, but let me take a minute here. I'm not trying to judge you.

I'm not trying to judge your actions, your feelings, the way that you do things, the way that you raise your children. What I'm trying to do is point out some of the mistakes that I've made along the way. If this connects with you, that's fine.

You know, I'm not trying to make out that I am the all wise wizard here, because I'm not. I've made these mistakes and I still make them. If we get that group of scouts together and we try and coerce a confession out of an individual, you can see what's happening. Right, I'm up in the ante. Hey, we're going to pack up and go home if nobody steps forward. I've had it.

I'm not dealing with you guys anymore. That could, in a very small percentage of instances, maybe get somebody to step forward, but that generally is not going to happen. You're going to pack up and go home.

And now you've up the ante even more because you've packed up and gone home. So the next time we get together with scouts- and this has already gone through the troop committee and all the parents have discussed it and the scouts have discussed it- you're going to say we need to find out who lit those matches, that scouts not coming forward now because the ante is too high, the price to pay is too high now. If we approach this in a different way, if we say someone playing with matches means that we haven't done a very good job as a troop and a patrol in teaching safety, ask the patrol leaders council what they think a logical consequence of that should be. Maybe they should voluntarily forgo all fire lighting privileges for a given time for everybody in the whole troop. That doesn't seem fair, but if you think about it, this connects all the individuals together. Hey, these are important things.

This is an important thing and we have to obey the rules and regs around this and if one of us isn't doing it, that could mean that we're in some trouble here. Perhaps the patrol leaders council will plan a fire safety session for the next meeting for everyone. If you encourage group responsibility, you're going to get responsible scouts individually and as a group. If you punish individuals, you'll end up more with this kind of every man for himself mentality than a sense of cooperative responsibility and progressively more challenging and difficult things we do in the outdoors. You've got to have cooperative responsibility. Individual responsibility- absolutely important, absolutely has to be an aspect of what we do in scouting.

But cooperative group responsibility- also incredibly important, and they need to be able to tie those two concepts together. I can't be all taken care of and set up and safe and dry and watch as my fellow scout is out there, wet and unsafe and not doing well, because we all need to stick together.

I think when individuals are punished or sanctioned, it has a smaller chance of helping them learn anything other than shame, other than feeling ashamed and, you know, sometimes in a way that is kind of irreparable. It also makes the results of admitting fault so unpleasant that we end up placing the wrongdoer on one side and the rest of their friends and scouting and the adults and the committee and all the parents on the other, and I just don't think that that is really very helpful. And when we're talking about individuals, we've got to. I'm going to go back to something that Andy wrote in the same column. He says: yes, a scout may do a bad thing. That's behavior.

But when we call him a liar if he lied or we call him a fire bug if he lit matches, we're cutting to his very nature and branding his character rather than dealing with the inappropriate behavior. I'll add to that that we need to once again be aware of our emotional reactions and that we don't let it inform our actions and keep upping the ante on these individuals.

Now, what I've described is, you know, certainly a serious problem and one way of looking at it. It's a reasonably serious problem with the matches and you know that could turn into something very serious indeed.

It's not necessarily, you know, the top tier difficulties and serious problems that I've had as a scout leader. I have rarely had to deal with the logical consequences of an individual's behavior in scouting that resulted in them having to deal with the police. Like I say, not to tempt fate knocked wood that I haven't had to deal with that very much, basically, twice in the 30 years of working as a scout leader, both times the offenses were only kind of tangentially related to scouting activities. They didn't occur on a troop outing or at a meeting, they occurred outside of those things.

Now, when I was made aware of the incidents and the charges, I did have to take some action. I mean, I couldn't ignore them because in both cases the actions of the individual scouts resulted in charges that could have been detrimental to our scouts if they were repeated during an outing or a meeting. I can tell you that one was assault related and one was drug related.

It's a serious problem for a young man and in those two instances you know we had to look at that and say: well, until this gets resolved, we're going to have to ask you to stay away from scouts for the time being. It's not that we think you're guilty, it's not that we think you're innocent, it's not that we really think anything about you at all, but you've gotten yourself into a bit of a pickle here, and until it's resolved by the authorities, there's really not a whole lot we're going to be able to do.

In both cases, after consulting with the troop committee chair, the scout was suspended from activities with the troop until everything was resolved by the authorities, and then the next step would be the scout to meet with the troop committee and map a way forward if he was going to continue in scouting. One of them did and one of them hasn't so far, doors still open. Our overall goal in dealing with these incidents was to preserve the safety of our scouts, the privacy of the offending scout and his family, and to give him a road back to redeem themselves after the authorities have made their determinations more routine. Discipline problems get dealt with on a case to case basis. We don't have a policy or a plan that describes offenses and consequences. We're informed only by the scout.

Oath and law. That is the gold standard for behavior and discipline.

I gotta say, if you have such a written policy that describes punishments, that has this kind of tiered approach to discipline problems, that includes you know well, you're going to have a conference with the Scoutmaster, then the senior patroller, blah, blah, blah. That might be helpful in some respects. But I gotta tell you, consider, every serious discipline problem is unique because it's coming from an individual and it will ultimately need to be addressed on an individual basis. If you're hemmed in by a policy statement that you've made, you may not have the latitude to act in the best interest of everybody involved. Just a little bit of advice there. This is a big subject, it's a tough subject and, like I say, there's lots of emotions and difficulties and questions and morality and things involved in it.

But just to review, when we encounter discipline problems in scouting, we need to divorce our emotional reaction from it. We need to understand that discipline is not punishment, discipline is teaching.

We can turn these difficulties most of the time- not always, but most of the time- we can turn them into something positive and something that is, instead of a tool for beating somebody down, for building them up, instead of an incident that's going to sap the morale away from our troop, we can build it into something that bolsters and broadens the morale of the troop. We can save individuals from being stigmatized and castigated and cast out of their circle of friends, sometimes for mistakes that they are going to make. They're all going to make them. It's going to be your child one day. It's going to happen.

So this is a pretty broad discussion, broad underlying concepts. I would love to hear your thoughts and reflections on the subject and I'll tell you how to get in touch with me in just a moment.