Scoutmaster Podcast 68

And now it's the old Scoutmaster. The other day I got into an elevator and there were a couple of guys in there already. The door closed.

We start our elevator ride and one guy turns to the other And he says I heard this great Scoutmaster joke And you know, immediately I stopped him. I said: hey, just, you know, before you tell a joke like that, you should know that I'm a Scoutmaster, Oh, he said. He said: yeah.

Well, I'll tell it real slowly so you can understand. Hey, this is podcast number 68.

Well, welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clarke Green, Heard from Jeff Swart on the blog this week And Jeff wrote to say: hey, Clark, what a great show Website service you offer to the scouting community- The spirit of scouting indeed.

Well, thanks, Jeff. Thanks for the Advancement Guide PDF. For your information, I found a link to the 2009 edition of the Advancement Guide.

So here's what probably happened, Jeff: You probably read an older post- It might be months or years old- where I linked to an earlier edition of the Advancement Guide, And in that case, you would want to definitely check and make sure that there is no addition that supersedes whatever I used to link to And I'll take some time when I can to go back in and fix those kind of things. But, Jeff, you guys are all my quality control people and I really appreciate it when you point something like that out.

So thanks for being in touch. If you spend any time at the blog, which is at scoutmastercgcom, you'll see that there's a new contributor there on the blog- Well, not absolutely new, because he's been commenting on blog posts and participating and he was even part of a podcast interview last year- And that is Larry Geiger.

Now Larry is a very experienced scoutmaster down in Florida and he's got a very impressive scouting resume And he's always made significant contributions in the way of comments and things on the blog And we've had some email exchanges and things like that. And I'm thinking: well, I wanted to move Larry's experience of viewpoint to a higher profile, So I've gone ahead and made him a contributor- How about that? And he's going to produce some articles and thoughts that we'll share with you. On the blog, You can see a profile of Larry and get an idea of who he is and what he does, And the first post that we put up, the first article that we put up from Larry is about his camping boxes. Yeah, not a whole lot of deep philosophy there, But he has a couple of boxes that he takes camping, fills with cook gear, and he's got some very specific selections on it And good reasoning for it. And this is really great because it's like looking over the shoulder of somebody with a great deal of experience.

You know has been doing that monthly camp out for ages and ages. Hey, what do you take with you?

Well, here it is, And we've got pictures and explanations of all the stuff that Larry has, And so I think this is going to be really cool. What I want to do is kind of start a little show and tell thing.

So you have something that you take camping, you know, or maybe you have a camp box, like Larry, that you throw in the pickup truck or the van or the car when you go camping, And it's just stuff that's proven to be useful over time and things Let's share, Let's, you know, take a couple of pictures, tell me what it's all about and send it on in And we'll put it up on the blog And I think it'll be great fun And it doesn't have to be elaborate or anything. You know a lot of times the simplest things are the most ingenious and important.

So if you have some hints or, like I say, a favorite piece of gear or something like that, send it in. You can get in touch with me by email at scoutmastercg at Verizonnet. Scoutmastercg at Verizonnet. One more little bit of business here. I'm a little late in announcing this, but our April giveaway winner is Mark Chesborough. Mark is a committee chair with PAC 186 in Cookville, Tennessee, And Mark says that he enjoys the newsletter and the website.

He says they're thought provoking for one who's recently rejoined the BSA and it's soon to move up to Boy Scouts with his son. Thank you for your work.

Well, thanks for participating in the giveaway. If you're not a subscriber to the Scoutmaster newsletter, go ahead and go to scoutmastercgcom, Click the subscribe link and you'll receive a monthly newsletter And each newsletter has giveaway from one of our affiliate sponsors. This past month, in April, It was the folks at Little Bug Stove who donated your choice of a junior or senior. Little Bug wood burning stove- Little lightweight thing that you can take camping. There's a review of it at scoutmastercgcom if you're interested. But Mark answered a trivia question and he was chosen randomly out of everyone who gave the correct answer to that question And he won the giveaway.

So once again, thanks for being in touch, Mark, and congratulations on the giveaway. The rest of this podcast is taken up with an interview I conducted last week with a fellow named Alex Koseff. Alex is the author of the Appalachian Mountain Club Guide to Outdoor Leadership. I know that some of you have already got this book and you've read it and you've benefited from it. If you want a college level course on outdoor leadership, this is the book. This is the one that you want to have.

It's very well written, It has a lot of good information in it, And in the course of the interview, Alex shares a tip about working with teenagers that I have not heard before And I think it's actually fairly revolutionary. It's probably going to save me a lot of angst.

You know, listen to the interview and see if you can pick it up. I'm going to stop talking about the interview so we can actually listen to it. There will be some resources on the blog post that contains this podcast at scoutmastercgcom, As you can get in touch with Alex and some training resources and things like that. But hey, I've said enough, Let's get started.

Today I'm speaking with Alex Pasek, the founder and director of the Outdoor Safety Institute in Bozeman, Montana. We're speaking to Alex from Bozeman And he's also the author of the American Mountain Clubs Guide to Outdoor Leadership, which, if you haven't seen it yet, folks, it's a great resource for anybody leading groups in the outdoors And I think it's one of the things that any scout leader who's doing any kind of an ambitious outdoor trip should have in his library.

How are you doing, Alex? I'm doing well. I'm pleased to be able to speak to you today, Clark.

So how did this whole outdoor thing begin for you? I grew up actually on the East Coast in Rhode Island and I was always near the ocean And the first kind of real outdoor exposure I had was just kind of exploring the coastline of Rhode Island and did a lot of fishing and snorkeling.

It also was, you know, my family did a lot of family camping and kind of doing getting outside And that just sparked a love for it. That started like continued into high school when I started doing outdoor activities with friends And then into college when I, you know, I really started backpacking and doing other activities more in a wilderness setting and then leading trips for my college outdoor club as a volunteer And started working in the summers leading wilderness trips for teenagers.

So Rhode Island- you got into the Whites and the mountains of New Hampshire and Maine and things like that. Or Massachusetts, That was my kind of. My first love were the Whites. In some places I spent a lot of time, including some of that time I was working for the Appalachian Mountain Club But spent a lot of time there- the mountains in Maine to New Hampshire.

Where did you go to college? I had it on the resume here, but I I actually went to college in Minnesota. I went to McAllister College, which is in St Paul, And somehow landed in a spot that didn't have mountains, which, But you went canoeing. Yes, I did. I did get to do a lot of canoeing and actually I learned to rock climb in Minnesota. There's actually some good small rock climbing areas there.

I mean I don't actually regret it at all. It's a really great college experience.

And now you're in like one of the big outdoor mechas of the US out there in Bozeman, Yeah, I mean I can be skiing, fishing, rock climbing, hunting, backpacking- all within 15 to 20 minutes in my house, An hour from Yellowstone. It's a pretty amazing place to be able to live. That is amazing.

The guide when it first came out- I think the first edition was published around 2003.. And I got a copy of it then. It was really, really useful. It was around the same time that we started doing some extended canoe trips with our scouts. It taught me a great deal. The second edition was just released, September of last year.

What do you think the big differences are between the first and the second edition? First off, the second edition just is a little bit more refined and readable.

There was a lot more effort put into the editing of this one, So it's just that much more accessible. Secondarily, there were some big new pieces added, One of them on teaching and facilitation, a lot more on safety and risk management in the outdoors.

And then the biggest piece that was added and a big focus in this edition is on needing youth in the outdoors, And that's something that the Appalachian Mountain Club, who was the publisher, as well as myself, are really interested in is kind of reversing the trend of declining youth participation in outdoor activities and making sure kids are exposed to the outdoors. The real foundation of the book is in your definition of good outdoor leadership.

What can you tell me about that? The way I define it is that outdoor leadership has three kind of foundational components. In the book I kind of use the metaphor of a three-legged stool and each leg is important for supporting your overall outdoor leadership ability. But those legs or foundations are technical skills, interpersonal skills and judgment skills.

And technical skills are what you know, that's, your ability to know how to set up tents and cook food and navigate and all those kind of things. Interpersonal skills, you know, are the ability to work with other leaders and with members of your group in a harmonious way.

And then judgment skills: the ability to see what's going on around you, both in the environment and in your group and even with yourself, and be able to assess what's going on and make good decisions. And you know I certainly focus on safety in the book, but it's also that judgment also relates to producing a good outcome, a good educational experience or a good overall experience for the participants in your group as well.

The judgment piece- you can learn some things about it through reading, but it's mostly an experience-based skill, wouldn't you say? Absolutely, You know, and that's what I say in the book- is that this book is a framework, it's a starting point, but the best leaders are the ones who are getting that hands-on experience and developing those judgment skills based on experience. That said, I do think there's room in there for developing those judgment skills through really good training programs. And some of the Wilderness First Aid type courses and leadership courses out there that try and put you in simulations or scenarios can really help develop some of those judgment skills. But at the end of the day, nothing beats experience working with and leading groups in the outdoors for building up those judgment skills.

In Scouting we have a pretty good training program but it's mostly about scouting. Some of it is about outdoor skills but it's a relatively small percentage of it.

You mentioned the Wilderness First Responder training and in addition to that, what are the other opportunities out there for people to get some really good scenario-based outdoor leadership training? Unfortunately, Clark, there's sort of few and far between. I mean, in different parts of the country there's opportunities. The Appalachian Mountain Club in the Northeast operates a program called Mountain Leadership School which is a five-day program that's very scenario-based. A well-known one is the National Outdoor Leadership School, which offers some phenomenal courses, primarily in the western US, and some international stuff. Those tend to be longer courses, at least two weeks, and often a month or longer.

There's also a lot of other smaller regional organizations that do offer some good scenario-based training. Let's talk about this Wilderness First Responder course. I was able to take that and I thought it was great. It was fairly easy.

I did it over a course of two Saturdays a year or so ago. How would you encourage somebody to go and take that course?

I think that the two-day Wilderness First Aid course is just absolutely critical for anyone who's venturing outside of the reach of the quick response from the 911 and EMS network. I've dealt with quite a few backcountry emergencies, some of them life-threatening.

It's so important to be able to fall back to that basic framework about what to think about first. What are your steps in your process of dealing with that situation?

I encourage people to take that course whenever I can You go on in the new edition of the book and elaborate on some techniques that can be used with teenagers? Most of our scouts are going to be participating in these kinds of activities, or at least 13 and up to 17, 18 years old.

What's new out there? Honestly, Clark, I don't know that any of it's totally new. Some of this is good practices that good people, good leaders in the scouts, in mountain clubs in Outward Bound and other organizations have been doing for decades, But what I'm trying to do is put it together in a coherent manner and make it a neat package for people in some ways.

So the thing that is really important to me is that the outdoor experience be something that's different from teenagers' normal life. If you go out there and you you know, it's kind of a situation that they experience much like they're at home, where teachers or parents are always telling them what to do.

It's not going to be nearly as valuable as if you give the teenagers some progressive responsibility to take on ownership of the activity, And I think that's something that's really missing for a lot of youth today, And so what I'm suggesting is that progressively turn over responsibility for the trip so that teens are really both responsible for things, which they aren't always. So they have to pack their own canoe, cook their own food, and if they don't do a good job, there are consequences.

They take over more responsibility And eventually, by the end of a- you know, a week-long trip, they may be doing all the navigation and you as a leader may be sort of watching from a distance to make sure that nothing goes catastrophically wrong, but giving them a little bit of a leeway to make some mistakes that aren't going to be, you know, have any real harm or safety repercussions, And I think that that experience is something that is really valuable in terms of building interest in the outdoors but also building, you know, overall life skills, decision-making skills for the teenagers And, ultimately, the activities we're doing in the outdoors. You know there's some safety issues There's, you know there's some skill involved, but they aren't that complicated.

They're a fairly discreet set of skills and you can train people in those pretty quickly, especially if they're not, you know we're not talking about, you know, climbing glaciated mountains, but you know the kind of basic activities we do in the outdoors. The other thing I think is important is kind of finding the right balance of challenge and reward. And I've been with groups and I've seen other groups out there on the trail where they just kind of on these huge marches And that can be rewarding if everyone's bought into the idea of accomplishing a lot of miles and getting something done.

But sometimes, you know, giving the group a chance to climb a peak with an amazing view and having a real feeling of success that way may be more important than pushing them really, really hard or having the opportunity to have a campfire at night, you know, after a solid day of paddling is more important than getting in your 30 mile paddle that day. So there's this fine balance of figuring out what's the appropriate amount of challenge for a group and how can the activities that you're doing be rewarding, either through a sense of accomplishment or also some kind of other you know, a view or a, you know, a fun night on the campfire or something like that.

So it's not all about covering miles, No, I mean, I think that some of the groups that you know have gotten the most that I've led, that have gotten the most out of it, have had their challenging days and they've had to push a bit, but they've also had easier days where there were a lot of fun things: swimming a lake- you know fun things to do out there too- and a chance to bond with teenagers in a way, other teens in a way that they don't always get to do at home. There's a bit of advice that you give that you may be unaware of that. It's pretty unique, but I haven't seen it anywhere else other than in your book, and that, especially when working with teenagers, is feeding them and frequent snacks and things like that.

I mean that actually never really occurred to me And what can you tell me about that? I think it's brilliant.

Well, it's something that I mean. I've heard this from other people, but I've also had this experience: The group morale and motivation and energy just sort of precipitously dropping and all of a sudden kids who were really excited to be there they're not anymore And it took me a while to put it together. But often some food will really really help to solve that situation. And the science behind that is teenagers have really really high metabolism levels and they need to eat a lot more frequently than most adults do to keep up their blood sugar levels. And when those blood sugar levels drop, attitudes really go south And it has a huge impact on the ability of the group to work together and get things done. The key there is that if you're at all hungry, your group is almost certainly- almost certainly- hungrier than you are And maybe not even be that tuned into that.

But making sure people have the opportunity to say, hey, I need a snack, And even encouraging that, before people bring it up, is a great way to keep the group moving. Just feed and hydrate your group. It's not just the food, the water helps a lot too. It's one of the most basic but helpful tips I've ever come across. I got to tell you, I know this.

I think I knew this at some level, but it was never like a part of the plan And that is worth the price of admission on the book alone. Well, it's just hugely important And you're right, all of us who've done any work with scouts have encountered this in one way or another. All of a sudden, everybody just kind of hits the wall. They start dropping like flies. You're wondering what the heck is going on. It's just a granola bar away, really, Exactly.

Another piece of that, too, is teenagers, especially males, have incredibly high appetites. They can really really eat a lot of food, And most American boys are used to getting all the food that they want. And, of course, if you're backpacking, you have to carry that food. But my advice in general is, especially when you're packing for teenage boys, is: pack on the heavier side.

Carry a little bit more than to have kids who are complaining about being hungry or potentially really are hungry and don't have the food to keep themselves well fueled, And they don't normally associate hunger with a drop in morale or a drop in behavior. They just get cranky. Exactly, They're not even aware: wow, I'm hungry. That makes me cranky, that's the fact of what I'm doing.

They just go there And so being able to notice that is pretty golden. That's excellent. One of the things that I really found useful when I got the first copy of this book- and it's in the second edition and it's a little expanded- is your discussion on expedition behavior.

Why is expedition behavior different from evening meetings that we have and things like that? Because expedition behavior is that you're really interdependent upon each other and the group isn't going to function well if people aren't working together in somewhat of a harmonious way. It really comes out of kind of expeditionary climbing, like climbing big heat peaks in the Himalayas or in Alaska. But the concepts are very applicable to any outdoor kind of experience, especially multi-day ones.

But it sort of begins with the idea of self-awareness, so being aware of what your own needs are, and then it flows into the idea of taking responsibility for taking care of your own needs. A classic example is somebody goes off to dinner and leaves their sleeping bag out and it starts to rain and then their sleeping bag is wet And that has an impact on the entire group because they didn't take on their own kind of self-leadership and taking care of their own things.

And then it moves on from there to the idea of being kind of supportive of group goals, so committed to group goals, tolerant of each other. I'm sure you've had this experience. People come into these things with different comfort levels for being in the outdoors and different physical ability levels And it's often easy for those who are more comfortable or physically able to be, let's see, like critical or not supportive of those who are less comfortable. But if people are supportive within the group and committed to the group goals, that support can really really help those people who are struggling through, can make them feel more part of the group and it can help them to really overcome some of those challenges and make the experience a success. And another piece of that whole expedition behavior is good communication and being able to express yourself in a supportive, non-critical way with other members in the group.

So the expedition behavior concept is something that leaders really need to have in themselves, but it's something that the whole group can really commit to. And one of the things that I like to do with groups of teenagers particularly is introduce this kind of concept of expedition behavior- or you can call it something else, if you want- early on and have the group help to define what the expectations of each other are. And you might have to prompt them a little.

Do you say, do you want people to be supportive when you're having a hard time or do you want them to be critical? They're inevitably, especially within the scouting community, they're going to understand the value of being supportive and that early commitment from the group to those concepts can be really helpful later on, when all you have to do is kind of say: hey, remember, early in the trip we talked about expedition behavior and being supportive of one another when we're having a hard time.

And for a lot of teens that'll really click and they say: oh yeah, you know, Joe's having a hard time. Now's not the time to complain about him slowing us down. Now's the time to maybe take a little weight from him and joke with him a little and try and share.

You hit on something else that I think in their limited awareness, teenagers don't always realize If they're uncomfortable or if they're physically incapable of doing something, they get kind of afraid and they get very reluctant and they get really recalcitrant- I think that's the word I'm looking for- about moving ahead or trying to do anything. And I don't think that they associate- just like they don't associate being cranky or difficult with not having enough to eat or drink- they don't associate the fact that they're kind of afraid or uncomfortable with something, with the way that they behave.

So, understanding that and kind of inculcating in the group these expedition behaviors that you're talking about, you're going to avoid an awful lot of that Absolutely. I mean that's so critically important. I really believe in outdoor experiences and a kind of concept of challenge by choice. You shouldn't be out there forcing people to do something that they don't want to do, Although there might be situations where you have to get through a bunch of miles because you have to finish the trip. But for the most part, if that group can be supportive of one another, you really avoid those situations where you call that recalcitrant, where teens get really reluctant to do stuff, and often- you're right, they cannot verbalize: I'm scared, I'm tired, I'm hungry. But if the groups really supporting each other and the teens- the boys are having easier time- are really supportive and encouraging and helpful to those who are having a harder time.

The net accomplishments the group can achieve are so, so much higher than if you let the people having a hard time drag at the back of the pack and feel miserable for themselves. It's really really crucial to understand these dynamics and then to put them to work.

So let's spend a little time just going over some of the techniques that you have in the book as far as leaders and group development goes. In encouraging group development, it's helpful to understand that there's kind of a natural group development process that most groups go through when they're on an outdoor experience, and there's some variation, but the basic stages are forming, storming, norming, performing, and then there's kind of one called a journey.

So basically, what happens is when people first come together for an experience, they're kind of excited to be there. They're trying to get a sense of what it's all about, who the other people are, but then, as challenges set in and as they have to cook together and sleep in tents together and hike long miles together, they get into a storming stage where there's some conflict amongst group members potentially. And that's actually not bad.

It's okay to have some of that conflict because it helps to establish how the group's going to work together. But if you can help facilitate that by setting some of those expedition behavior expectations, really that's helpful.

Then you move into kind of a norming phase which is figuring out how we work together well, Leaving the fighting, the storming, the argument behind, but working better together. And then from that norming you get into a performing stage where the group can really really work well together. And not every group gets there. It depends on the leadership, the activity you're doing, the length of the program, the participants.

And then the adjourning phase is kind of the hey, we're leaving and people starting to realize that this isn't going to go on forever and that people are going to go and sort of separate at the end of the trip At each stage of this. There's no science to this. It's really more of an art. But it's being able to kind of to step back as a leader and not impose your own perspective, as much as trying to look at the group and how people are interacting and even how they physically look.

Are they kind of lazily lily, dipping their paddle in the canoe, or are they? Did they have their head down and they're looking miserable, backpacking, or are they kind of determined looking?

And those little observations about individuals and groups can really help you understand who needs support, how you might be able to encourage certain people who and the groups doing really well and you might be able to task them with helping other group members for struggling a little more. So that assessment thing- there's no rule book for it but it's being able to kind of leave behind your own perspective, your own perhaps tired state, struggling, hiking, or your own viewpoint and really look objectively at what's going on in the group and try to help the group move through some of their challenges and work together to achieve a greater good.

Scouters will be pretty familiar- well, at least ones who have been through some of the more advanced training, like wood badge and things would be, are going to be real familiar with the storming, norming and forming and the forming, norming, storming or the inks and those dynamics. But you know, just being cognizant of these processes is such an incredibly important thing. When you're working in that kind of group development phase and you're getting through that, you're also minimizing a lot of possible difficulties you're going to run into.

I want to spend some time talking about a very important part of the book, which is risk management. Here's what I think, Alex.

I think a lot of us run into it in our professional lives and there's somebody who is like the risk manager and nobody really wants to see that guy come through their office door. But I'm a big advocate of understanding- especially in these kind of outdoor adventures, the role of risk management, and I know that you spend a lot of time assessing this stuff.

So give me a starter course in a couple of minutes here. What if I'm headed off to take a group canoeing for a week or backpacking for a week?

What is it that I need to be thinking about that? I might not know. Here's summary there is that a lot of people don't really want to deal with. The risk manager is very accurate, and this is primarily what I do for a living actually is help.

Outdoor programs deal with safety and, to some degree, liability issues, and one of the things that's really important to me before delving into the course idea is that as a culture, we're very risk averse, we don't like danger, and I think it's really important and I think that the scouts actually really help to encourage this in our society a little, to understand that life and also rewarding growth experiences have risks and we can't eliminate all of those risks. But at the other side of it is my advocacy for risk doesn't mean that it's an excuse for not conducting the activities and the outdoors that we do in a responsible way.

So there's a lot we can do to make the activities we're doing a little bit safer. But at the end of the day there is always going to be risk and every trip that goes out should have some level of a risk management plan.

What are the likely hazards that are going to be encountered in? Really three areas. One, the particular environment we're in.

Is there going to be a big river crossing we're going to have to do, and potentially could the water be high on that river crossing? Then the activity we're doing is, if it's backpacking, is one of the hazards may be lightning up on a peak or a ridge, or is it swimming in a remote, cold pond lake?

And then hazards within the group- and that's a really important one- is looking at who's going and thinking about the physical, emotional, health needs of the participants in that group and are there special steps you need to take for those, Everything you identify as a risk. There's a little process of kind of figuring out: can we, is there a way we can reduce the risk?

Can we eliminate it potentially if it's not important to the activity, or can we just say that that's an inherent risk that we need to accept as part of this? So, looking at those things and thinking about how can you modify them without taking all the fun out of it, there's the looking at things in advance and how are you going to deal with them, knowing how to respond if something does go wrong. This just isn't because there is a fear of being sued or some liability problem or something like that. This is for real and this is how you can kill people if you don't do this, and that's a tricky balancing act. People often view this safety stuff as being driven by the liability thing, but I work with some of the best lawyers who specialize, actually in defending organizations from lawsuits and they all, front and center, tell you that don't bother with any of this stuff- safety stuff in risk management- if all you're concerned about is being sued. You do it because you care about the people you're taking into the outdoors and that you want to provide these experiences, but you also want to do it in a conscientious manner.

It takes a bit of an ego to be a scout leader and there's a lot of bravado involved and things like that, and I think it's particularly valuable having someone like yourself, who has a little perspective on this and who actually studies these things, to back up the idea that this is really important. There are some hazards out there. It's not disproportionate. I mean, if you look at some statistical information, other activities these teens could be doing are much more hazardous, including a lot of common high school sports are much more hazardous than the type of outdoor activities we're talking about.

But at the end of the day, what do you think the most dangerous part of going on a backpacking or canoeing trip did? I know the answer? That's getting in the car and driving there. Absolutely make sure people are doing basic stuff like wearing seatbelts, driving a speed limit, not driving when you're exhausted after at the end of a long day, perhaps hiking out to the trailhead.

So that's where you can really have an impact too. These are things that you have to keep in the forefront of your mind when you're leading this kind of thing. It's just incredibly important for Captain and Mr Buzzkill.

Now we're just, I know, and it's really tempting. I know how tempting it is to get out there and you're having a good time and you don't want to deal with this stuff. But at the end of the day, if it becomes kind of a systematic approach and it's just how you as a leader do things and it's how your scouts in the group are used to doing things, it's less of a, it's less of a buzzkill.

I think it's really actually liberating because if you're sure, or at least reasonably sure, of your skills and you're reasonably sure of you've taken a time and sat down and sketched out a risk management plan and you've done your best to assess all of the different things that you're going to do and what considerations you're going to need to have and where you can bug out if you need to get out, it's pretty liberating because you don't have to make that up on the spot now. Well, I really appreciate you having taken the time to talk with us and I've got to say the book, which is the American Mountain Club Guide to Outdoor Leadership- Appalachian Mountain Club- okay and it's. It's an excellent resource to definitely give you a big leg up in learning how to be a really effective, intelligent outdoor leader.

So, Alex, thanks again for taking the time to talk to us and, you know, try and keep warm out there in Bozeman until what about July? Pretty ski season last until July.

So yeah, but thanks, Clark, I really appreciate. It's fun to talk to you and people can also feel free to contact me. They can head over to our website at OutdoorSafetyInstitutecom and you can contact me off of that website or look at what we've got available on the website there.

Well, thanks very much, bye, bye.