Scoutmaster Podcast 372

And now to you. Scoutmaster Brandy Lamb is a scouter down in Florida and she mentioned to me that the seamstress at REI was kind of getting on her nerves.

You know REI, the camping gear folks. The seamstress there is getting on Brandy's nerves because she's so intense.

So That's about par for the course, I would guess.

Hey, this is podcast number 372.. Well, welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast.

This is Clark Greene, and rather than waiting around until I get to it right here at the top of the show, I want to say thanks to everyone who helps me make the podcast possible. And you can join them, if you like, by becoming a scoutmastercgcom backer or patron. It's easy to do: Go to scoutmastercgcom and click the support links right there at the top of the page. Be a backer, be a patron. I really appreciate it. There was a lot of response to last week's podcast that kind of devolved into a little bit of a rant about things, chiefly being the way that the BSA is planning to welcome girls into the organization this coming February.

If you did not listen to that, let me just give you a short synopsis. I don't like the way they. I don't like the way they're doing it, Because what they're asking is for girls to participate in the BSA.

We have to establish an all girls troop, separate from the all boys troop. A lot of people, myself included, would rather have just a fully coed troop, just like most of the rest of the world does.

So let's take a look and see what listeners had to say. Bus price with troop 349 in Verona, Wisconsin, wrote in to say: at our district camp are either. This weekend the topic of incorporating young women into our troops came up. It seems as though most troops are going to establish the second troop, have the same key three volunteers and basically function as one troop. All seem to think this approach is a stepping stone towards truly coed scouting.

How would you suggest that we approach troop committees about preparing for this next year? I think functioning as a single troop is a great idea.

Well, bus, if you look at the FAQ that the BSA published about this- and I will have a link to it in the podcast notes- it's pretty clear that establishing a girls troop and having the same key three volunteers and then functioning as one troop is not really an option, although I suspect that most people will will do that and they will be de facto coed, because here's the breakdown. There's no restriction on having the girls troop and the boys troop meet in the same place at the same time and even share an opening and closing ceremony, although the FAQ notes that they should have separate programs. There's no restriction against the boys troop and the girls troop scheduling camping activities together And, as far as the key three are concerned, the only one that can't be duplicated for both troops is the Scoutmaster. Girls troops have to have a separate Scoutmaster.

So as far as approaching your troop committee is concerned, I believe it's a great idea if all the members of the committee are on board with the whole thing, but the ultimate decision about chartering a girls troop, which is our only option. There's no option to welcome girls without chartering a girls troop, and that decision is up to your chartered partner.

So if the chartering organization is willing to charter a troop for girls, then they can also help define how it will be administered, whether it will be under the existing troop committee or if a new committee needs to be set up, and they can help choose the Scoutmaster for the girls troop. What I suspect is going to happen, as I said, is people are going to do all the paperwork and then just function as a de facto co-ed troop. And that bothers me and that was the source of my rant last week, because it's kind of nonsensical. When you get right down to it, Logistically it's just not a very good idea. I don't think it's good for our scouts who are boys. I don't think it's good for our scouts who are girls.

I doubt the BSA is going to direct councils to monitor and strictly enforce all of this. I don't know how they would And our volunteers at the troop level are going to do what makes the most sense to them. Mike A Ryan Semanovic got in touch and said: I'm an Eagle Scout, a Wolf Den Leader and Apprentice Cub Master getting ready to take over the pack next year. I just discovered your podcast and I really wanted to say thank you. I can tell I can learn a lot from you. For the record, I'm strongly advocating for girls in our pack next year.

I expect that we will have separate dens that meet at the same time and place and experience the same activities, while nominally being separate Again. You know I've just commented on the whole troop thing.

Well, the pack thing is going to end up the same way. I believe People will give the whole separate but equal idea a shot and they will find out that it doesn't work very well, that it's not a very good thing for boys or girls and they will end up doing all the paperwork but not carrying out the policy to the letter of the law. Mike also asked: is there any chance you can point me to that awesome, I am a Sasquatch song from the last week's show Absolutely. I'll have a link to it in the podcast notes. That is a song by a band that's fronted by one of my old Eagle Scouts whom you've heard here on the podcast last year, Bucky Kellogg. As Bucky and Wade were hiking the Appalachian Trail, The band's called Lost Festingos and you can find them over at Bandcamp And, like I said, I'll have a link to it in the podcast notes.

Wayne Wilcox is with Troop and Crew 184 in Cobham, England, If that sounds strange to you. Remember we have a direct service council for ex-patriots in different parts of the world. Usually they're in military or diplomatic service. The BSA facilitates them being able to have scout troops just about anywhere in the world And, as I said, Wayne's over there in England and Wayne wrote in to say your thoughts on dealing with older Scouts are right on the money. It's been a challenge to keep them engaged but, as you said, if you give them scouting to do, then they get on with it. It's true You can't tell them to share attempt with little guys.

They really want their own patrol. I give that to them with the understanding they'll be there to help the little guys out when needed. I give them a lot of responsibility and authority and they repay me by making me very proud of them.

And that is, Wayne, exactly the way it works, isn't it? I have a pretty good retention of older Scouts.

I lose many when they move away because we have a very transient community, But the ones who don't move generally stick around and become ancestors on their 18th birthdays. Wayne goes on to say: I listen to your diatribe at the end and I couldn't agree more. I've been running a fairly successful co-ed venture crew alongside our scout troop for five years now. When I heard the BSA was going to invite girls to become Boy Scouts, I was very happy, only to have that slip away when I saw how they were going to do it.

As I'm scouting over here in England, we have first-hand exposure to the fully co-ed model. We have a British scout group that we consider our sister unit and we do numerous activities together during the year.

I think we in the BSA could be just as successful as their program if given the chance. I think it should be up to the units to decide whether co-ed or single sex is the way they want to go.

I think the BSA will come around eventually. In the meantime, I don't plan on unilaterally. I would be very interested to hear comments from your other listeners on the way forward. As always, keep up the great podcast and keep on scouting Well. Thank you, Wayne. I appreciate those thoughts and, as we've already heard, I agree with what you're saying, And over on Facebook there were quite a few comments on the post that contained the podcast last week.

Tim Fox said I think the past four years have shown that the BSA is trying to adapt. Our chartered organization structure is resilient but it's very inflexible and this slows down the rate of change. My guess is the BSA will have co-ed troops within five years. This may be unsettling for some, but it's the only stable outcome. Bringing girls into our existing scout troops rather than establishing new girls troops would be better for everyone involved because our older scouts can share their experiences with them. The BSA plan permits us to be more conservative and not have girls admitted at all, but not more progressive, and that seems wrong to me.

Craig Snodgrass followed up on that comment by saying- I've heard quote-unquote: while separately chartered, a linked all girls troop may adopt the same number as an all-boy troop. If true, this, coupled with the allowance to meet on the same night, would not only be fully compliant on paper but would also help usher the inevitable move to being fully co-ed.

And I agree with you, Craig- and as I've said several times, I think that's the way people are going to do it- that if you reference the FAQ that I talked about before, even though the units are allowed to meet on the same night, they're supposed to have separate programs. Dave Goldenberg wrote in and said thank you for the rant in last week's podcast. As a Scoutmaster with a venture crew, I can totally relate.

We have challenges now and I can't imagine how we're going to make three separate entities work next year. Lots of our families were excited, including my own, that their sisters will have an opportunity to participate. The separation of the troops and units will be frustrating to many, as many thought we could just add girls in a co-ed troop. Your point about ignoring the rules also hit home.

I won't support just doing what we want to do, just as I would not support changes to the requirements. And yeah, David, I agree with you.

It's very distressing to me that the likely outcome of what is going on is a result in a lot of people just having to either create elaborate justifications or just paper tigers and look like they are obeying the clearly stated BSA policy, because every discussion I've been privy to that is exactly what people say they're going to do, and it puts everybody in a very uncomfortable position and, as I've always held, doing that sends a terrible, terrible message to our scouts that you can just ignore this sort of thing and work around it or justify it when the way that you're going to do it makes more sense- And the conundrum here is: the way that we want to do it makes more sense- makes more sense. So I'm not very happy about all this, but I'm trying to maintain a good sense of humor.

How about you? Aaron Hall commented on Facebook and said: I proclaimed yes, yes, yes. While listening to last week's podcast, I'll admit, allowing girls to join the BSA caught me off guard at first, but I'm totally on board now. I don't think the lack of integration is going to work And understand. I'm a Scoutmaster who has a daughter in girl scouts and my wife is a girl scout troop leader. One of the big problems with girl scout units is a lack of trained and willing leaders to take the girls outdoors, and this seems like it would also affect the girl troops unless, as you suggested, everybody ignores BSA guidance and just integrates anyway.

Once again, I think I've already made clear like what my stance is on this right and how frustrating it is. I don't suggest that people just kind of ignore BSA guidance on the whole thing. I just see it as being an inevitable outcome of the way things are headed Over on Facebook too. Mike Comnick said in the past six months I've stumbled on your podcast. I mean, I'm a new cub master but I've been a den leader for several years and let me say this has been an extremely helpful.

Well thanks, Mike. I'm always glad to hear that we're being helpful, even extremely helpful, and that we're extremely helpful is even even better news. Lawrence Wittes commented on Facebook about last week's policy. Has saying competing for older scouts, time seems to be the issue.

Well, I know that that's what it feels like, but I'm going to be a little pedantic and say I learned not to compete for their time but to cooperate with all the other activities that they're involved in. I mean, for one thing is a way for them to take what they learn about the scout oath and law into the wider community and to apply some of the skills that they've learned in scouting to the wider community.

And I really decided that we were not in a position to compete for their time and that we should be the most flexible and accommodating thing on their schedule, and that really has unlocked a lot of potential. My older scouts are extraordinarily helpful and involved when they can be, without feeling as though they are letting us down when they cannot.

So this definitely does not close down the subject about welcoming girls into the BSA at the troop level next year. I really want to hear what your thoughts are about that. But in the remainder of the podcast we're going to talk about the stated subject of the podcast and that is Eagle Scout Advancement.

So let's get started, shall we

Music? We're going to talk a little bit about Eagle Scout Advancement Before we go any further, I want to draw your attention to something that I hope you're already following and that is Bob White Blather. It's a blog by Scouter Frank Maynard, and Frank and I have been communicating with each other for years. Frank has a lot of expertise around the troop committee, served as a troop committee chairman for a great long time, has a great deal of experience he can share with you- and I often refer people to him- and Frank's latest post was a synopsis of what came out from the National Advancement Team in this quarter's newsletter.

I will have a link to the newsletter in the podcast notes, as well as a link to Frank's blog and this post in particular. But one thing attracted my attention, and it has to do with Eagle Advancement, and it's about keeping things simple. Let me read you what Frank wrote said. Local councils routinely offer informational sessions on the life to Eagle process. These are often accompanied by council specific publications or outlines listing the necessary steps that need to be completed and how things are handled in that particular council. Indeed, some troops even have their own guides to the Eagle process, while most are brief, outlining things like the times and places that project reviews are held and the procedure for scheduling a board of review.

Some extend to dozens of pages and contain duplicate, outdated, just plain wrong information if they are not constantly reviewed and updated. The Advancement Team offers advice for those councils and units that offer such informational packets. They suggest keeping them short, limiting the information to the processes unique to the council or district, avoid rehashing information that's contained in other official BSA publications, like the guide to Advancement, and linking to scoutingorg for copies of forms and documents rather than posting them on websites and reviewing everything periodically to ensure that they conform to national policies and procedures. It's especially important they advise that councils and units don't intentionally or unintentionally impose additional requirements beyond what the BSA specifies.

So make sure to check that out. And if you want a deep dive into what goes on in scouting Advancement, you can get on the mailing list and get the National Advancement Team newsletter that comes out four times a year. That and an email that I received this past week, whose sender asked to remain anonymous, Kind of get me in the mood to talk about Eagle Scout for a little bit and Eagle Scout Advancement.

So, from a logistical and administrative thing, Eagle Scout Advancement, to my mind at least, is way over complicated. There's just this incredible amount of paperwork and this labyrinth of things that sometimes change very subtly from year to year and sometimes change rather dramatically. And I guess I understand the rationale behind the existence of a lot of this, but really it's it's something that I could go on about, but when it comes to the paperwork, logistical, administrative end of this, keep it simple. There are two key documents.

There's the Eagle Scout application and there is the whole project workbook thing. The project workbook is fine.

I think it's a little over complicated, but it's fine. The Eagle application: again, I think it's a little over complicated and it's fine. If you take those two things and you read them carefully and calmly- calmly is really important here. Read them calmly as if you knew nothing about the process of becoming an Eagle Scout. Things would immediately make sense. If you read them in a bit of a lather and try to reconcile the tremendous amount of folklore, mythology and the downright inaccuracies that are commonly shared in casual conversation amongst Scouters, you're going to find the whole thing confusing and frustrating.

And this is where I segue into the answer to the email that I received, because talk about confusing and frustrating Scouters getting wrapped around their own axle. Eagle Scout will do that just about every time, and so the email I received was talking about a particular possible candidate for Eagle Scout who is very, very close to their 18th birthday and, in the nature of many 17 year olds, it's kind of snotty and privileged and thinks that they can get all the stuff done that they need to get done.

I've got a Scoutmaster who's like, wow, I really don't know about this, and you know, this kid's attitude is not what I would expect from somebody who will become an Eagle Scout, and so they're kind of analyzing how much work they have to do and what kind of merit badge work they have to do. They're trying to get down on a granular level with their advice to the Scout.

The Scout, of course, is being snotty and privileged, like many 17 year olds can be, and not taking the advice, and so you know, here's what I have to say about it. The attention that's being paid to this is coming from a good place. It's laudable.

Okay, you're trying to be helpful, but you're probably over involving yourself in things that I personally, as a Scoutmaster, have come to regard as none of my business, and I want to explain that, because here's what's going through my mind when I'm working with the Eagle candidates like the one that you describe. So you want to take on 10 merit badges in an Eagle project in the next three months?

Well, you know what. You're 17.

You know your own mind. It's none of my business. I'm going to be skeptical and I'll give you the benefit of my advice, even though I know you won't listen, because none of the Scouts who were just like you and sat in that chair ever listened to the advice that I gave them.

And what am I going to say? You know you're 17.

You know you know your own mind. If this is the way you want to go about it, it's kind of none of my business, especially if you don't care to hear what I have to say about it. Whatever happens next is up to you, and it's not like this is something we haven't been talking about for the past several years.

Now, if you want to be entitled and snotty about it, well, there's no need for me to pile on the comeuppance that you so richly deserve and will get very soon, because it's inevitable. I mean, I've watched kids like you for many, many years. You always get some kind of comeuppance. Somebody takes you down to peg at some point. It may be in Scouts, maybe out of Scouts, it may not be for a year or yet, but you're being that snotty and self centered. This is coming.

I don't need to pile on with it. When that time comes, if you ask for my help, I'll be there for you, and I know all this because this is not my first rodeo.

Okay, within the next couple of months, you're gonna come to me for some kind of help with your eagle because you got yourself in a situation I've warned you about. And you know what. I will not only help you out. I am going to forgo pretty much the massive I told you.

So that is mine by right, because I'm a grown up and you're just a snotty kid. So, yeah, when you fall into the chuck hole that I told you exactly where it was and exactly how you were gonna fall into it- yep, I'm gonna help you anyway.

And you know what? I'm even gonna shake your hand at your quarter of honor with a full heart, even though you'll probably still be pretty snotty about the whole thing now in your later years. Maybe you'll reflect on this time with a little bit of regret about how self-centered you are and how you treated people and maybe not really kind of.

None of my business, is it? The best thing I can do is be your scoutmaster and give it my best shot. My aim is to help you.

I don't need to win your thanks or your respect, and so at first place that might sound like I'm being a little snotty myself, but I'm really not okay. I'm just recognizing that.

Okay, there's really not a whole lot of way that I'm gonna fix this. I'm not gonna waste my energy on trying to prove something to this young person because they're not looking for proof. I'm gonna help them.

I'm gonna be the, I'm gonna be the best scoutmaster I can be for them, and if they're snotty in return, well, what? What do you expect? I mean, you're working with 17 year olds and they're not all that way. Some of them are absolutely wonderful people.

Some of them are snotty, privileged little twerps, and you and I very well could have been that way ourselves at that age. So when we're working with scouts who are working on eagle, we get pushed and pulled in all kinds of directions by the scouts, by their parents. We get tangled in the complex labyrinth of paperwork and procedures that need to be followed, and many of us are haunted by the idea that we must prevent the undeserving from becoming eagle scouts.

Now, what parents and scouts do and how they push and pull us around and the paperwork edicts that come down from above are way beyond my control. That I have to deal with the best way I can. However, I can manage my own attitude and reactions by acknowledging I am not responsible for quality control or responsible for guarding the holy sanctuary of eagle against the undeserving.

Now that is something that is truly none of my business, because nobody deserves to be an eagle scout. I'll say it again: nobody deserves to be an eagle scout.

Now, as a new Scoutmaster- and mind you, this was over 30 years ago- I built up my own idealized standard of winning eagle scout ought to be, and a lot of this was based on the mythology and lore and legend of eagle scout dumb. That has no real basis in fact, and these are things that are routinely discussed and agreed to by many scouters, but they they're just nothing factual about them. And man, I got a snoot full of that as a young Scoutmaster and I said: nobody is going to get eagle unless they meet my standards.

Now the problem is is. I hadn't actually answered the question: what is an eagle scout?

I've been struck, distracted by a very different issue, and that is: who deserves to be an eagle scout? I thought that I needed to be the judge of that.

So the answer to the question of who deserves to be an eagle scout is easy, because it's any scout who completes the requirements. That's it.

There's no more and there's no less. There's no eagle plus and no eagle minus, only eagle. And the way you become an eagle scout is what: you complete the requirements. During my tenure as Scoutmaster, I was very privileged to present somewhere north of 100 and south of 120 eagle scout badges.

So how did that go? All of the scouts who received eagle during my tenure completely measured up to that idealized, dramatically operatic and totally unnecessary standard that I created for myself. But I learned that that didn't matter. And I can tell you something: none of the 55,494 eagle badges handed out last year went to a scout because they deserved it. No, each one of them received a badge because they earned it. Nobody becomes an eagle scout because they deserve it.

Eagle scout is not the Nobel prize or the Pulitzer. That's just awarded to a choice deserving few. When a scout fulfills all the requirements and passes a duly constituted border review, they receive the eagle scout badge.

So it is not your job or my job to decide who deserves the badge, only to recognize that they've completed the requirements. The 55,494 scouts did not do precisely the same quality or quantity of work to earn the award last year, nor were they all equally meritorious. Each had individual limitations and talents. Each had their own set of parents, their own set of issues. They worked with scouts who involvement and skill were all over the map.

I believe a healthy percentage of them, if experiences means anything, were kind of snotty, privileged youngsters who left a lot of work to the last few months of their 17th year, but they completed the requirements. They get the badge now. When we present an eagle badge, we recognize two things: achievement- they completed the requirements- and potential.

We are telling a scout that what you have achieved is a strong indication that you have the potential to embody the ideals that this award represents, because I think the important thing to realize is that once a scout earns an eagle badge, he begins the life long process of becoming an eagle scout. Not one of the 2.7 million or so young people who have earned the rank were an ideal, fully formed eagle scout when somebody handed them the badge. That badge is just a doorway to a lifetime of opportunities ahead of them. We've recognized a measure of potential and character in them and the rest is up to them.

My first eagles are well into their 40s now and I'm privileged that many of them still keep in contact with me. It's one of the great joys of my life. And each of them is busy becoming an eagle scout every single day, because that's what an eagle scout does. Our job is seeing to it that every one of our scouts has a chance to complete the requirements for eagle.

That way, they can spend the rest of their lives becoming an eagle scout, and we're responsible to clear the way as best we can, to offer what advice we can and to let the scout do the rest. You're gonna run into the maddening, indifferent, snotty little twerp sometimes, but remember they're just kids still trying to figure things out and you're the adult. You should have a little more experience and perspective than they do, let's hope. And if you really want to spin your wheels and get wrapped around your own axle, get in a power struggle with a snotty, privileged 17 year old see how that goes for you. One of the things I began to understand about this whole thing was that as an adult, I was also confronting the ghosts of my own 17 year old self when I saw it in my scouts.

Because I don't care who you are, you do and say some things at that age that are so very, very stupid. You know, I mean we need a lot of forbearance and forgiveness to make it past the age of 20 that our parents, our teachers, our friends didn't just strangle us in our sleep some days.

You know that's a miracle, and so when we're working with candidates for eagle, your attitude and your perspective is very, very important. We're gonna keep things as simple and direct as possible. We're gonna be as helpful as possible. We're gonna be as understanding as possible and trying to be the adult you wish you had to help you at that age, rather than one who has something to prove.

Because if you imagine a scenario where you hold the hard line and you're kind of a hard head about things and you're mean and you are going to take that snotty little 17 year old down a peg, well, good luck with that. You can make them knuckle under if you want, but you can't win their hearts and minds that way, and if you're understanding and passionate and, like I said, try to be the adult that helps them, rather than one has something to prove to them, you know what they very well may come back to at some point when they're a little bit older, they've seen a little bit more of the world, and say: you know, I was kind of snotty about the whole thing and I really thank you for the attitude that you had. And maybe, not probably much more likely, that's never gonna happen. It's happened to me a couple of times. It's been very nice probably, but it's not gonna happen.

But under which scenario are you going to feel like you've been closer to being an example of the scout oath and law? Huh, yeah, I think the answer is pretty clear.

Hey, we all got a lot of work to do, don't we? I'd like you to get in touch with me and let me know what you think about this week's podcast and all of the ongoing issues we've been discussing. I'm gonna tell you how to do that in just a moment.