Scoutmaster Podcast 327

I'm Shannon and I'm a Scoutmaster and a Dem Leader with Trooper 1 and Pac-66 in Virginia Beach, Virginia. This edition of Scoutmaster Podcast is sponsored by backers like me, And now it's your Scoutmaster. Here's something that came across recently from listener and reader Paul Teal: Everything we do is for the Scouts, but we don't do everything for the Scouts. I like that. Thank you, Paul. Everything we do is for the Scouts, but we don't do everything for the Scouts.

Couldn't have said it better.

Hey, this is podcast number 237.. Finally, Yes, 237.. Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is indeed Clarke Green and I've been away for a bit. Let me take a few minutes and just explain what's been going on. If you have been a longtime listener, follower, reader of the blog, you will know that my father passed away early in September.

So I've taken an extended leave of absence from the podcast and the blog to spend time with my family and to manage the many issues involved. Dad passed away peacefully at the age of 91, surrounded by the ones that he loved. We recently laid him to rest in Arlington National Cemetery with the honors do of veteran of the Second World War. There's a story to be told of his service. It's something that I'm going to be working on for the next several months and I hope to share with you.

I want to thank the many listeners and readers who sent messages of condolence and support and inquiring after my own state of mind and whether or not I was okay, And you know what. I'm fine. As you can imagine, it's been a difficult and trying time for everyone, but your messages of condolence and support have been very, very meaningful.

So I really want to say that I appreciate that, And now we're ready to get back with the Scoutmaster blog and the podcast and get things rolling again. Boy, do I have a big backlog of email, questions and other messages that I'll be sharing in the next several podcasts. Let's take a look at what I've got on the list for this week. Uche Akuba is skipper of Sea Scout Ship 272 in New York And he wrote to say: your podcasts are invaluable and change my outlook as a scouter.

I'm actually less stressed and have so much more fun with the Scouts. Well, I'm glad that we've been able to help you, Uche, And I appreciate your message.

Parker Lewisin left a nice review of the Kindle edition, That's, the electronic book edition of So Far, So Good- A New Scoutmaster Story. He said it's excellent reading material for seasoned leaders and new leaders. Clark made every effort to cover situations that any leader would encounter as they attempt to create a boy-led troop.

Well, thank you, Parker. I appreciate that. Also heard from Richard Exnesios, who's with Troop 56 in New Orleans, Louisiana.

He says thanks so much for this resource. We're a relatively new troop and we need all the information we can get. There seems to be too much information out there to sort through and get a definitive answer.

Well, Richard, I'm glad we can help. I know it could be a bit of a thicket trying to figure out exactly where the answers are and which answers are actually useful, And I do my best to try and sort things out and share them with you here on the podcast and on the blog. Hey, the t-shirts are still selling.

How about that? The Stuff Scouters say t-shirts available over on Amazon.

I'll have a link to it in the podcast notes And there were a number of comments left over the past several weeks. The shirts: I hit with all my scouter friends. I work at a scout camp and I get a lot of FaceTime with others. I love it. Other Scoutmasters are jealous.

Well, you know. Take a look at that, See if it interests you. Two hundred and some phrases that scouters say over and over and over again.

So over the past several weeks we haven't been doing too many chat sessions. I had a chance to get a couple out. I'm going to try and get back on a regular schedule of that. This is the way that it works. I'll be at ScoutMasterCGcom most Tuesday and Wednesday mornings with a live chat. If you keep an eye on the Facebook feed and the Twitter feed, I'll announce when I'm going to be there for a live chat.

Check in, sign on, where we talk about a broad spectrum of issues, Everything from the weather to important things that you might want to know as a scouter. And in addition to the many scouters who are frequent fliers and sign on to the chat regularly, we recently heard from Fred Rossmark in Severna Park, Maryland, who's a former den leader in CubMaster and looking for an official troop role. Christian Kowski is a Webelos den leader in Crystal Lake Illinois with PAC and Troop 168.. Dominic Galoro checked in. He's an assistant Scoutmaster in Marion Iowa. Courtney Lane Clapper is a troop committee secretary and the wife of an assistant Scoutmaster in Southwest Florida.

All those folks have checked in on the chat. Once again, keep an eye on the Facebook feed and the Twitter feed. I'll make sure to announce when I'm going to be on the live chat over at ScoutMasterCGcom.

I want to take a moment to mention if you're a regular reader and listener- even though for the past several weeks it's been a little bit difficult to be a regular reader and listener- and the resources we've created have helped you. You can return the favor and support this work financially by making a one-time payment and becoming a ScoutMasterCGcom backer, or make kind of a subscription payment via a service called Patreon by pledging $5 or more a month, And there are special premiums available to anyone who becomes a patron or a backer. Look for the backer and patron links in the podcast notes or go to ScoutMasterCGcom right there at the top right hand side of the page.

You can click the support link and the be a patron link to check out on the options for those- And I want to take a moment to personally think: wow, this is a big list- Kevin Byrne, Jeff Sabuda, Steve Jackson, Ryan Smith, Lisa Williams, John Burnside, Paul Prusinski, Ted Miller, Walter Tomlinson, Morgan McDermott, Tom Perry, Robert Acker and Chris Jordan who have become backers since our last podcast, And I want to also thank Steve Jackson and Bill Chapman, who have become patrons since our last podcast. Take a little time this week, figure out which option works for you and I'll be sure to thank you personally on next week's podcast. The remainder of this podcast is going to be taken up by answering an email question that came across the transom here within the past several weeks.

That, I think, raises some issues that are always worth talking about. So let's get started, shall we? When I get all steamed up, then I shout: tip me over and pull me out, Tip me over and pull me out, Tip me over and pull me out. Tip me over and pull me out. Write me a letter, send it by name Email. That is, folks,

And here's an answer to one of your emails. Well, for very obvious reasons, I'm not going to share the name or the location of the person that asked this question via email, but let's just dive in. They wrote to say: my family loves scouting, My son loves scouting, but we're having difficulties with our troop. One of our scouts got in trouble last year at school. He was punished at school, punished at home, and after the scouters of our troop found out about this incident. They placed him on probation for months.

My star scout son was turned down six times for a life service project. The Scoutmaster told him he was too young and too immature to be an Eagle Scout. The troop adopted a new system for approving star or life service projects that requires filling out part of the Eagle paperwork and unanimous approval of the troop committee. My husband and assistant Scoutmaster tried to point out that this was outside BSA policy, but he was told that it has been voted as a new troop policy.

My question is: are these policies legitimate? Can a troop place scouts on probation for things that didn't even happen in scouts?

Can a Scoutmaster prevent scouts from advancing because of their age? These are common questions, unfortunately, that I've addressed a number of times and I want to take a little time to kind of delve into them in this podcast.

The first question is: can a troop place scouts on probation for things that didn't even happen in scouts, Distressingly? The answer is yes. A troop can probably adopt a policy to do that, but to my mind it is inadvisable either to adopt the policy or to place scouts on probation.

The second question: can a Scoutmaster prevent scouts from advancing because of their age? That's an easy answer: No, Although distressingly, a lot of Scoutmasters seem to think that it's their job to judge the maturity of a scout and to put the brakes on if they feel these immature for some reason.

The third question is the most important one, probably, and it's not directly expressed in this email: How does a family deal with these kinds of things happening in a troop? And when you get down to practicalities, a wrong-headed scouter can do all kinds of silly, stupid things that hold scouts back and you won't change their mind. You won't change the mind of the other adults involved. I've worked with literally hundreds of troops and thousands of adult volunteers and once people are entrenched in this kind of mindset where they're going to make policies and they're going to make judgments about scout's maturity and they're going to hold a hard line about things, you're not going to get anywhere with them, And the advice that I've given people many, many times is to get out of that situation and find another troop. Most places there's another troop out there that hues a little closer to the line and kind of gets what scouting is all about.

I hear about situations like this from time to time, and if you find yourself in this kind of situation, the one thing that you should first understand is you're not alone, And the second thing is that this is not the fault of the scouts involved. It's the adults who are simply mistaken about their role in scouting. The best bet if you find yourself in that kind of situation is walking away from the mess and not looking back, not having any arguments or making any parting shots. You just pack up and leave. Visit a couple of other troops, talk to the Scoutmasters, get your son to talk to the Scoutmaster and you'll find one who gets the program.

So listen carefully to this, okay, Leave these folks who are causing you problems behind. No arguments, no parting shots, just leave. The only thing that matters in this situation is the interest of the scouts involved, and that's the only thing that matters 100% of the time. In a month or two, this whole thing will be in your rear view mirror, Your son will be enjoying scouts and you can move on. That is my typical advice for that third unspoken question.

Let's go back and examine the first two questions a little closer. Question number one was: can a troop place scouts on probation for things that didn't even happen in scouts, And I've had that question a couple of times in the past several weeks from different people. And just for clarity, troops are permitted to implement appropriate disciplinary rules and corresponding penalties and it's mentioned in the literature. But my convention is that this is a very bad idea because we deal with every scout and every situation individually, based on that scout's understanding of the scout oath and the scout law.

If there's a discipline problem with a scout in a troop and it needs correction, the scout is referred to as parents and they can return him to active participation when they're ready to assure the troop that the issue is resolved. Scouts are not to discipline or punish children. That's up to their parents And that's the way I've learned how to do things and what I recommend to others. It's not necessarily a matter of official policy or procedure And you should always check my advice against the resources out there. But let me expand upon this whole idea for a moment. I don't think a scouter is necessarily a bad person or is totally misinformed If they decide they're going to have disciplinary rules and penalties and things like that in their troop.

I just think they don't understand their role very well, And let me explain why. Our children spend the majority of their lives in activities and situations where rules are made and penalties are defined, and that is what we've come to expect. School districts and sports teams and community organizations who work with young people often find themselves at an impasse where they have to define some rules and they have to define penalties for breaking those rules.

Sounds perfectly reasonable, And you know what It is in some situations. But I've never seen any positive effect of this sort of thing in a scout troop, because a scout troop is a different kind of a situation. It's not school, it's not a sports team, it's not a typical activity that a young person will involve themselves in. Scout troops may have some similarity with those things, but they are different because of the aims they are trying to achieve. The aim we're trying to achieve as scouters is to develop character in young people using the scout oath and law. We really don't have any other aims.

There are some ancillary benefits that come out of that, but that is the main aim. That's what we're all about. You can't develop the character of an entire group of people. You can only do it one individual at a time. And if you impose a bunch of rules and penalties for a group. What you've done is you've tied your hands about being able to deal with individual situations.

So let me explain my experience with a couple of situations that hopefully shed some light on what I'm trying to say. Many years ago one of my scouts came to the attention of the authorities because he had threatened another young person with a pocket knife. In that case I did not have a whole lot of choice but to talk to his parents and to say that until that incident was resolved with the authorities, I couldn't really permit him to participate actively with the troop and that, whether or not there were a lot of mitigating circumstances involved, the incident rose to the level of an immediate concern for other people's safety and I had very little choice in the matter. I explained that I was not placing the scout on any kind of a probation or trying to punish him in any way, but that the only thing that would satisfy the concerns over the safety of the other scouts was to tell his family that he could not actively participate until these matters were resolved. Over the course of 30 years I've had scouts who've done all kinds of things outside of scouting that were inconsistent with the scout oath and law. These things have happened at school or in the broader community.

They've come to the attention of either the school or the scout's parents or the scout's friends. I've heard about them.

None of these things would raise their fellow scouts if they continued to participate in scouts, but they did raise a concern as to how well they understood the scout oath and law and whether or not they were going to be able to follow the scout oath and law. If I become aware of one of these situations, I'm going to sit down with that individual scout and we're going to discuss the situation in the light of the scout oath and law.

I can tell you that in those discussions, if you want to say to a scout, your understanding of the scout oath and law is so imperfect or so radically outside of the norm that you cannot be permitted to be around other scouts, Quite to the contrary, what I find is that young people are usually very, very sensitive to these issues and these ideals and that if you discuss it with them in the right manner, you ask them to explain their behavior in the light of the scout oath and law, They get it right nearly every single time They understand the difference between their behavior and the ideals that we encourage them to strive towards. Now it's not uncommon that a scout in this kind of situation will be dealing with some kind of penalty in another area of his life. He might be suspended from school, He might be discharged at home, He may have, as a result of his actions, had a fallout with his friends. But I return to the idea that our aim is to help scouts develop character, and the tools of developing character are the scout oath and law. And when you sit down and you discuss the ideals of the oath and law with scouts, rather than your judgment about their actions or their maturity or their actions, that you and the scout will discover a way to resolve the issue. If the only tools in your toolbox to resolve this kind of issue are a set of rules and policies that the troop committee decided they needed to vote on and put on pieces of paper that also involve penalties, you're not going to be able to resolve the issue with the scout.

You're not going to have the opportunity or the values of the scout oath and law within the scout. You're only going to be able to issue a judgment and a punishment.

So consider, before trying to set out a list of rules with associated penalties, consider how much you are limiting yourself in your work as a scouter. Now the second question here: can a Scoutmaster prevent scouts from advancing because of their age? The short and long answers are both yes and no. If you go through the Guide to Advancement, you will not find a statement specifically prohibiting this idea, because the Guide to Advancement can't deal with every stupid idea that somebody may have about who gets to advance. When The Guide to Advancement isn't cursing the darkness, it's lighting a candle.

Okay, And if you go and you read the Guide to Advancement advising us on how to judge the suitability of a scout for a given award, you won't see any ages mentioned, other than the fact that there's a minimum age for becoming a scout and a maximum age for staying a scout. To expand on that question, I can understand why a scouter would look at a younger scout challenging one of the higher ranks- Star, Life or Eagle- and be concerned about the scout's relative maturity. But maturity is not mentioned explicitly in any requirement for any of those ranks. Some of the requirements may indeed describe the aspects of a person's character that would indicate maturity, but there's no exact measure of maturity mentioned anywhere in those requirements.

And one rabbit hole that we can jump down for just a moment is the whole discussion that comes up when there's a 13 or 14 year old Eagle scout, and everybody tears out their hair and wrens their garments over the fact that this is an impossible thing. That should never happen, and I will get out of the rabbit hole by saying this: there is only one way to become an Eagle scout, And that is to fulfill the requirements and pass a duly constituted border review. That's it. There's no other way to become an Eagle scout.

Now you can argue until the cows come home about exactly what an Eagle scout is and how it should be and everything like that. The most satisfactory answer I have to those arguments is that becoming an Eagle scout is certainly achieving a rank by completing requirements, but it is only the beginning of a process that carries on throughout one's life, And if we've done our job as scouters, we understand our job as scouters as achieving the aim of developing character. Through the scout law, All of our scouts, no matter what rank they achieve, no matter how many advancement awards they have on their shirts when they leave us have tools to become kind, compassionate, contributing citizens, strong, inspiring leaders and all around good folks for the rest of their lives.

That's what's really important, isn't it? So that's a very long answer to a relatively simple, multi-question email, But I think these things are so important that we need to go back.

We need to look at them on occasion. If you have a question for me and you'd like to get in touch, it's very simple to do and I'm going to tell you how to make that happen in just a moment.

Well, thanks for listening to this 327th edition of the Scoutmaster Podcast. Here's how to keep in touch. You'll find lots and lots of articles and 300 plus editions of the podcast at scoutmastercgcom, where you can subscribe to receive updates to the blog and the podcast.