Scoutmaster Podcast 261

I'm Mike Beals and I'm Assistant Scoutmaster with Troop 226 in Roswell, Georgia. This edition of the Scoutmaster Podcast is sponsored by backers like me.

And now for you, Scoutmaster. Um, listen, uh, I had. I had planned on sharing a funny story about Eagle Projects, but I haven't completed it yet. But don't worry, I have plenty of time. I really do. I have plenty of time to get it done.

This is podcast number 261.. Hey, Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clarke Green.

So going right into the mailbag here, we heard from Cora Shahid who said: this scouter is H-A-P-P-Y happy. Thank you, My app is fixed and I can listen to the podcast again. Oh my, yes, Cora, Thank you for getting in touch and for being a bright spot in an otherwise dark and difficult time with the Android version of the Scoutmaster CG app.

Now listen, if you've installed the Android version of the Scoutmaster CG app in the past, what you're going to do is you need to uninstall it and install the new version, which is now available on Google Play. I checked on it this morning again and there's lots of people have been installing it and it seems to be working okay.

But it's been a bit of a waking nightmare the past week or so trying to get this fixed. So let me be very clear: The new app is what you want. Uninstall the one that's not working. Install the new app. It works, And the good news, the silver lining- in the cloud- is that it remains free because of the folks who become scoutmastercgcom backers.

Now, if you have the iTunes app, you're going to update it and you'll see some changes, but you really don't have to do anything And really my heartfelt apologies to those of you who have found that the Android app isn't working. It's taken way, way too long to get fixed. By way of explanation, My old app provider wasn't taking care of business. They were extraordinarily slow to respond to my cries for help a couple of weeks ago when the app was not working.

So I found a new app provider. We built a new app And, because this is not something that I do every day, it's been a long and arduous process And the only way we could get the new app to you was to get rid of the old one. I really appreciate your patience And I understand why some of you have been a little impatient about it, because I certainly have been.

Now, if you encounter any problems with the app, email me. Okay, Get in touch with me at Clark at scoutmastercgcom, And I'll do my best to get it fixed. But as of this announcement, I'm hoping that the majority of the problems are fixed. Oh please, Oh my, we do have some fun, Yes, even in the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities.

So let's move on, shall we? We had some live chats this past week and the live chats happened at scoutmastercgcom. There's a chat button in the lower right hand side.

Normally, I'll announce when we're going to be on for a live chat through my Facebook and Twitter feed, So you want to make sure to check that out. And sometimes, if I'm working in my desk for a while, I will turn the live chat on just to be available, and I won't necessarily make an announcement on it. But in addition to all of our frequent fliers who show up for the chat, we also chatted with Bruce Liggett in Billings, Montana, where he's an assistant Scoutmaster for troop 10.. Jamie Jones, who is on the committee of troop 152 in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio. Vincent Arbug is the advancement chair and a chapter advisor for the Order of the Arrow in Iowa. Jeff is an assistant Scoutmaster in Omaha, Nebraska.

Mark Mills is from Madeleine, New Jersey, and he's a newly minted assistant Scoutmaster for troop 66.. Leon Venedictu is in Richmond- not in Virginia, but in the United Kingdom, in Great Britain- And he's an assistant scout leader for the Scouts Association there and was a scout himself as a youth in Greece. David Wilkes is in Dallas, Texas, and he's an assistant Scoutmaster for troop 68. And he's soon to become the Scoutmaster.

It looks like July, So welcome to the volcano, almost. David Dan Clegg is the Scoutmaster of troop 460 in Orem, Utah. Kirk Seager is in Castlebury, Florida, where he's an assistant Scoutmaster in troop 692.. Keep an eye on the Facebook and Twitter feeds for announcements when we'll be having a live chat. It's mostly weekday mornings- And check in, say hi.

Now, before I get any further, let me tell you this: if the resources that we've created have helped you, I need your help in return to keep them freely available to scouts just like you all over the world. You know we had a problem with the Android app.

I don't know if you noticed, but we had a problem with it and we were able to get it fixed because we have backers. You can go to scoutmastercgcom today and click the support link at the top of the page and you'll learn exactly how this works. Backers make a one time voluntary subscription payment to support what we're doing, And some levels of support earn a premium, like an autograph copy of one of my books.

So go to scoutmastercgcom, click the support link at the top of the page, become a backer this week. And I want to take a moment to thank John Hartfig, Kelly McKiernan, Terry Dutton, Jacques Navias, James Monteney, Michael Beals and Brad Chilcote for becoming backers since our last podcast And for the third and last time. Go to scoutmastercgcom, click the support link, become a backer this week, and I'll be sure to thank you on the next podcast. And a big thank you to all the backers who keep us up and running. In this week's podcast, I have some email questions to answer, And in Scoutmaster's ship in seven minutes or less, we're going to discuss the dreaded troop program death spiral.

Sounds ominous, doesn't it? And that's going to take up the remainder of the podcast.

So let's get started, shall we? Scoutmaster's ship in seven minutes or less?

Now, naturally, a title like troop program death spiral is a little gratuitously dramatic, right, But it does describe something that I think does happen And it did get your attention right. This is based on an article that I wrote a year or two ago and reposted this past week on Facebook And it really struck a chord with folks, got a lot of comments and a lot of likes and shares on Facebook I thought it would be good to talk about. On the podcast I heard from Corey Needleman on Facebook. He said there has been some talk amongst our adult leadership that you are monitoring and intercepting our electronic communications and releasing podcasts or articles that are directly relevant to current topics we're discussing. I hear that once in a while, Corey, And it is true I have agents everywhere. Bob Deck also commented on it and he said it is the job of the adults to guide the scouts, to direct them to wholesome activities where they can have fun and adventure and learn, not to sit them in a classroom and teach them.

The scouts should be running almost everything, with the adults watching and giving guidance when needed, And I wanted to thank also Megan Sandlin and Michael Gagney, Bill McFarland and John Nelson for checking in with a big thumbs up on that post. Carrie Barclay brought up the other end of the spectrum and she commented on a troop that loses scouts because they're not having any fun or doing anything, because the adults are so hands off in the name of being youth led, that nothing really happens. John Probst replied that, yeah, adult guidance is a must, but some people seem to forget it, And I would agree.

You know, scout led is not without context or guidance from adults. It's not about adults doing nothing and accepting every decision or having zero expectations of the scouts. Being youth led is not a slogan. It takes a lot of work and study to get it right.

So let's talk about how troops get off track and potentially lose scouts and this crazy kind of troop program death spiral that I'm talking about. I think there's a predictable sequence of events that lead to a spiral that can crash the entire troop program, And it's not the scouts. Right, Because the scouts will follow your lead. They're going to follow your lead and they're going to adopt your attitude. It ends up being us.

It's the adults who are volunteering to be involved, And I think a lot of it comes from when we sign up to be adult volunteers. We do one of two things: We attend training and then we go on to work at understanding our role and we evaluate what's happening and we try and do it better and we learn more and we gain more experience and we try and do it better. But we're always in this evaluating, looking at what's going on mode.

Hopefully that means that we don't get stuck in a rut and we have the knowledge that we can get better in our roles. The other things that happens is a lot of adults who volunteer don't get trained, And even those who go to training, if they don't learn the role and ask questions and try and get better at it, they just end up following the breadcrumb trail of bad practices that were present in the troop when they signed on.

So either we take the time to understand and study our role in scouting and follow those principles or we end up perpetuating old mistakes. Now it's almost impossible to become a volunteer for a scout troop without hearing at least something about the patrol method or the virtues of a scout-led troop.

So let's say you learn about the patrol method, you go ahead and apply it. Well, when we apply the concepts and practices of the patrol method, the first results are almost always disappointing from the adult perspective. That's important because it is a matter of perspective To an adult scouts working at the patrol method for the first time are going to look incapable and incompetent or even just lazy. Their efforts are going to be disjointed and chaotic and they're going to fall far short of creating the kind of ideal orderliness and efficiency that we imagine they can.

Now, instead of looking at that state of affairs as a positive indication of growing and developing leaders, this disappointment is looked at as a failure of the patrol method as a way of doing things. And if adults become convinced that the patrol method just won't work, then they take over and they run things in an efficient, orderly manner, like adults do. Right, Because when we adults run things there's less trouble, there's less uncertainty. Scouts will be happy to have things taken care of and they won't complain about it.

Why would that? You know, boys are very sharp efficiency experts. If an adult is willing to do everything for them, of course they're going to do it, especially if they end up joining a troop where the adults do everything in the first place. It's just the way things work.

They don't have any experience, to the contrary, so why wouldn't they follow along? And you know what Scouts will stay: an adult led troop where all the decisions are being made by the adults, all plans are being made by the adults.

The adults cook all their meals for them, but they're only going to stay just so long because they're going to get bored eventually. And unless the adults are able to come up with more new and even more entertaining experiences, Scouts are going to get bored and they're going to leave. And that's really upsetting to the volunteers who are putting all their time into making this wonderful experience for the Scouts right. And you get resentful because you think that the Scouts don't properly appreciate what's being done for them And this turns into frustration and hardens into resentment And usually this results in the next curve of the spiral, which is making rules.

You know we're going to a lot of effort here to plan these meetings and outings and things like that, And the boys aren't even showing up. So I know what we'll do. Let's make some rules. If you can't be a scout in this troop unless you show up at this percentage of meetings and outings, you must do this, you must do that.

And that kind of rulemaking is kind of hardening that resentment And it's likely to drive more Scouts away And then we get into the next curve of the spiral. Adults get even more frustrated that everything that they're doing and trying to make this work doesn't seem to be gaining any traction. They're pretty fatigued from trying to hold things together and doing everything.

Things continue to spiral down And we lose adult volunteers and we lose Scouts And ultimately we can lose the entire troop. So how do we not get into this spiral?

Well, first step is getting trained. But getting trained is not enough.

We can't just get trained and passively receive the ideas. We have to apply them.

We have to test those ideas. We have to pick them apart and learn about them.

We have to go through a continuous process of putting them into action and observing the results, assessing what we understand about them and then trying all over again. One thing I'm fond of saying is that adults involved with a scout troop need to have a very high tolerance for adversity and uncertainty, because Scouts learn how to lead through experience. Those experiences, from an adult perspective, can be very tiresome and difficult.

So we need to, through training, through our own study, through our own working at it, understand exactly what's going on. So the good news- and all this is totally within our power to control as adult volunteers: Get trained, understand your role. Study it. Don't just passively receive what you get at training. Pick it apart, look at it, study it, read up, use the resources that are provided to us and apply the patrol method and stick with it. Give it a chance to work.

Have a tolerance for some uncertainty and some adversity. Work with your Scouts in it and you'll begin to reap the benefits. Stick with the process, strive to understand it and you'll avoid the dreaded Troop Program Death Spiral.

I received this email from a long-time listener and reader who said I have run into two problems related to the Eagle Scout application process that I haven't run into before. They're both kind of complicated by adult politics and I'm hoping you can help me out. Problem number one is a scout who came to my attention who has some significant adverse events in his life around his border review for Eagle.

The border review was completed, he has all the paperwork but he wasn't given any instruction on what to do next, and now several months have passed since his border review and he's kind of given up on his application. How can I help him get this fixed.

Well, that problem is probably reasonably easy to fix, Even if we're past the 18th birthday. So long as everything for Eagle was completed, including the border review, and he has a complete application, he should be able to submit that application and get the Eagle recognition that he's earned.

Now, exactly how that's going to happen depends on a number of factors. So I would suggest that you get in touch with the folks at advancementteam at scoutingorg. Advancementteam at scoutingorg. They're very responsive and they'll be able to tell you how to salvage that application and get things figured out. Problem number two is a scout who is the president for his venturing crew. But the crew adult leadership is kind of disconnected and not helping him with his advancement to Eagle.

So he's also registered with a troop. He doesn't hold a position of responsibility in the troop.

So there's a question about who can sign off on the position of responsibility required for Eagle. Must this be an adult leader in the venture crew or can his troops Scoutmaster- sign off on a position of responsibility in a different unit?

Well, I looked at the resources and I could not find any restriction on who can sign off on the position of responsibility, whether it has to be the unit leader where the scout holds a position of responsibility, or there is no specific limitation that I have found, And if there was, I think it would be directly there in the requirement or in the guide to advancement. And this sounds similar to an experience that I had a year or so ago. We had a scout who came to us from another troop and I sat down with him and had a Scoutmaster conference for the rank of life.

Now he had not held any position of responsibility in our troop, but he represented that he had in his old troop, And so it took about four questions and about 10 minutes to figure this one out. I asked him to give me some specific examples about how he fulfilled that position of responsibility. I asked him to tell me what he had learned from it. I asked him about the particular challenges or accomplishments he experienced in fulfilling that position and some very specific things about when he did it and where he did it and how he did it.

And I followed up by saying: you know, before we signed this requirement one last time, on your honor as a scout, you've accurately and completely answered all my questions, And if you have even the slightest reservation that you've completed this requirement. We shouldn't sign it now And we should figure out how you're going to complete it.

But we both agreed that he had completed the requirement and so I signed it off. Now, in the discussion that I had with him, if he wasn't able to come up with any specific things or something seemed to be amiss, I may have gone further to see if I could find any proof of what he had done by talking to his parents or his fellow scouts or the leaders from his past troop.

But you know, after we discussed things, I really didn't need to. I was able to take him at his word and I don't regret doing so.

I think it was the right decision to have made. And in the course of that discussion, we found out why he left his old troop.

They were digging him for an attendance metric they had established and for you know things like not having a complete uniform or missing meetings, And he was missing meetings because he was involved in activities at school where he was exercising a lot of leadership skill. Because of these perceived problems, he was turned back from getting a border review for life several times over a two year period.

There were some adult politics involved in this as well, But, as I said, I haven't been able to find any restriction on who can sign that requirement for Eagle. When we're dealing with the technicalities around advancement and procedures and policies, the last thing I want you to do is take exactly what I say as being gospel. You need to prove to yourself by going to the resources that I have it right, And if you find out that I don't, please let me know.

This next email question came from a listener who asked to remain anonymous, and it asked this question: Is the border review or Scoutmaster conference a test for the scouts next rank? I asked because we recently were discussing requirements with a scout that he had had signed off and he didn't seem to know anything about them. He didn't even have a clue in some instances.

So we talked to the scout who signed off his requirements and he didn't seem to know much either. We found this kind of upsetting And so, to prevent this from happening again, we have instituted a couple of new policies For Scoutmaster conferences.

We have a two week program. The first week the scout meets with senior scouts and an assistant Scoutmaster to test his knowledge of the requirements, And the next week he meets with the Scoutmaster, who's certain that the scout knows all his skills. The other policy that we've instituted in our troop is to get a requirement signed off. A scout needs to have them signed off by an older scout and either the Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmaster.

Now this seems to be working pretty well, but I've been reading some BSA literature and it seems that we're doing things incorrectly. So I'm asking for your read of the situation and any advice you might provide us.

Well, I would imagine that you've been reading the Guide to Advancement 2013. And you'll read early on in that guide that no council, committee, district, unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from the advancement requirements. And what you're doing is wrong because you're adding requirements by adding steps to what should be pretty straightforward things right Now.

You've done this in all good conscience, with a laudable goal: to address concerns about the quality of a scout's skills during the review process, But in doing that, you've missed a couple of important points And to clarify this, let's look at the Guide to Advancement. When we look at the Guide to Advancement, it's time to get a pencil and paper, because here's the numbers right: 4.2.3.5 is titled the Unit Leader or Scoutmaster Conference, And in part it says this quote: the conference is not a retest of the requirements on which a scout has been signed off. It is a forum for discussing topics such as ambitions and life purpose goals for future advancement and also for obtaining feedback on the unit's program. Then we move to section 8.0.1.1, which is entitled not a retest or examination, And it says this quote: though one reason for a border review is to help assure the scout did what he was supposed to have done to meet the requirements, it shall become neither a retest or examination nor a challenge of his knowledge. A badge recognizes what a young man has done towards achieving the primary goal of personal growth. It is thus more about the learning experience than about the specific skills he's learned.

Now you tell me you've come up with a new policy requiring scouts to have a requirement signed off twice, and that's adding to the requirements- right, Something that's expressly forbidden by the Guide to Advancement. And you've instituted another policy where he's pretested on everything before Scoutmaster's Conference. Again, you've added to the requirements, and that's not allowed. The concept that fixes all this is pretty simple. You're just aiming at the wrong thing. We don't retest the scout's skills, because scouting isn't about the skills.

It's about the growth the scout has experienced in learning and demonstrating the skills. In other words, our aim is not to train scouts to become skilled outdoorsmen, but to give them a set of experience to develop their character. All of the activities and learning around the skills has this ulterior motive.

In Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review we've learned how well we're doing in developing the scout's character and if we're having a positive effect on him, Not whether or not he remembers how to tie a square knot. So I'm not asking you to take my word for this or telling you my opinion. It's what you've seen for yourself in your own reading of the Guide to Advancement. What I suggest is getting the Guide and having all the adults involved in the troop to sit down, read the Guide and especially concentrate on those sections that bear on the questions that you've asked, and you should be able to clear things up.

I think that your goal is laudable, but you're just aiming at the wrong thing And this challenge is a basic assumption that scouting is all about developing specific skills and testing them. But it's not. We're aimed at something far greater, and when we understand that, things start to make sense. I heard from Sam McCulloch, who's with Cub Scout Pack 91 in Shreveport, Louisiana, and he said this: I want our Webelos dens to operate as close as possible to a Boy Scout Patrol. They choose a patrol name and they elect a patrol leader.

But I want to kick it up a notch. I want them to have patrol boxes and gear and have them responsible for it, have them cook and clean up as a patrol and do everything like scouts do it.

Now am I getting too extreme? Webelos feels a little like purgatory sometimes because we're in between the simple things that the younger cubs enjoy and we're not able to do the full blown adventure that a scout troop does.

Well, Sam, purgatory is really an interesting allegory for Webelos. Now, before I start answering your question about kicking it up a notch, let's have a good understanding of the specifics of Webelos camping.

Have you got all that information? And another big issue is age appropriateness.

What's going on in the broader life of Webelos during those years? How are we supposed to be working with the Webelos years And what's your relation with the local scout troop? That might help sort things out a little bit too.

Well, Sam got back in touch and he says: well, your question about my understanding of the specifics of Webelos camping sparked my curiosity and I did some research And I found this in the outdoor leadership skills for Webelos leaders. Each step in the outdoor program should be age appropriate, with a foundation for the next higher step.

We should guard against using outdoor activities. What will take away from a boy's later experience in a troop?

We want to wet their appetite for scouting, not to give them the whole meal too early before they're ready. Sam said I believe you've led me in the right direction. Maybe, instead of my previous idea, just showing them how to properly use the equipment and a couple of den overnighters would be much more suited to the program.

Well, Sam, I hardly need to add anything to that. I can go on and on about age appropriateness, but I think you caught the idea. We're not keeping Webelos from all these great experiences because they're ready for them and we just do it to delay them unnaturally because of the program. No, we're doing it because they aren't actually ready to do them yet And unless you have some experience with older scouts, this can be a little hard to understand.

You know, when you're working with a group of Webelos you go: Hey, why not? My Webelos are definitely ready, My son is definitely ready to do this stuff, but you'll find out that they aren't and it's not in their best interest.

So let's get over the idea of Webelos purgatory. Okay, we're not unnaturally, you know, punitively withholding all the good stuff because that's only for scouts. What they're doing in Webelos is building on age appropriate activities that prepare them for scouts, certainly, But there's a lot of fun and learning and personal development that goes on in Webelos And we're going to miss that if we're looking too far ahead. Hey, if you've got a question for me, you can get in touch. It's pretty easy to do And you're going to find out how to do that in just a moment.