Scoutmaster Podcast 242

I'm Mark Van Lund and I'm an assistant scoutmaster with Troop 125 in Comac, New York. This edition of the Scoutmaster podcast is sponsored by backers like me. Have a great day and thanks for the podcast.

And now for you, Scoutmaster, Before we get going this week, I have a pretty simple question for you. Why is it most scouts think a nylon tent is some kind of soundproof booth?

You know what I mean. You've been in a campsite before with scouts, right?

Hey, this is podcast number 242.. Welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green. Let's take a look in the mailbag. I had several responses to a post that went out this past week about constructive scouting discipline, And if you haven't seen that one, make sure to go to scoutmastercgcom and check it out. Bill Norton got in touch with me.

He's a scoutmaster with Troop 7 in Grapevine, Texas, And he said that is exactly what I needed to hear today. Thanks, Well, I have agents everywhere, Bill, So hopefully we're getting the message out there that most fits the situation you find yourself in. Bill Daniel is a scoutmastercgcom backer and he commented on that post. Your approach works wonderfully.

It takes some effort to separate the boy from the world of imposed rules to the freely adopted principle world of scouting, And that's very well said, Bill. I appreciate that thought. The scout law gets him to think about bigger concepts that may help with other frustrations or temptations in the future. It's a difference between a transaction and a relationship, And we are in the relationships that build character business.

Well, I couldn't agree more, Bill, And I really appreciate the thought. Brent Dixon is a backer and he's an assistant scoutmaster with Troop 192 in Central Florida And he wrote in about that post and said: this has been one of my favorite posts. You've ever written excellent advice in a format that is terrific in walking us through the steps and the logic of handling a regular experience on a camp out. Please continue to provide posts in a similar format to that.

I'm not the only scouter who is looking for practical stories, scenario teachings that we can use to be better leaders to our scouts. Thanks for all you do.

Well, thank you, Brent. I'm going to take your advice. I'll see if I can come up with a few similar ideas like that heard from Bobby Meadows, and he's with Troop 91 in Opelike, Alabama. I'm writing to get your permission to use a story from podcast 120 as a recruitment tool. The story was about a boy watching some Cub scouts scouting for food and asking if he could be a scout. I'd like to use the clip containing that story.

Thanks for your support. Well, Bobby, I was able to locate that And, like you said, it's on podcast 120.. I sent the clip to you. Hopefully it'll be useful for your recruiting efforts.

While we're on the subject, folks, anything that I've created has been created to further the cause of scouting, So feel free to use it. Here's all I ask is that you attribute it to scoutmastercgcom and, where appropriate, provide a link so that people can get back to the website and find our other resources. John Nelson is a backer and he's an assistant Scoutmaster with Troop 947 in Westchester Ohio And he wrote in to say I wanted to thank you for your four part series on the patrol method.

For last year or so I've been working with my troop to return to the patrol method. I joined the troop as a scout almost 10 years ago And we've kind of moved away from the patrol method here and there. I would go into specifics, but it would make it a really huge email. Your podcast helped me show other scouters the big picture and they agree that the patrol method will make the troops stronger and give our scouts a better experience.

So this week our senior patrol leaders going to sit down with the patrol leaders and talk about the patrol method. Of course there's some loose ends that need to be tied and changes need to be made, But I know that scouts can figure this out. Train them, trust them and let them lead, Just like Greenbar Bill said. Sounds exactly like what we're up to. I'll be sure to update you as things go along. You've heard it a thousand times, I'm sure, but you really do make a difference for scouts and scouters everywhere.

Well, thanks so much, John. I really appreciate knowing that what we're doing is actually helping out there. And I'll add very quickly that it doesn't really matter where you are in my troop or any troop that I've known. We're always tying up some loose ends, We're always making improvements, We're in a continual building and developing process as far as youth leadership is involved and just about everything that we do.

So you never get finished. That's an important part of the nature of our work, isn't it?

I want to take the time just to say a few words about answering emails, because the pace and the volume of emails has picked up quite a bit this fall. I do my best to answer emails the same day I receive them and I'll share maybe three or four out of five or six here on the podcast in the hopes that they'll help other scouts with similar questions. Make sure, when you email me, if you want me to hold what you're saying in confidence, to let me know right there in the email. I also appreciate knowing where you are and what unit you're involved with and what your role is. I respond to each message as I can.

The ones that are dealing with difficulties or challenges that people running into I try and reply to as soon as I possibly can, and the more conversational or storytelling ones it may take a little longer, But I was going through the inbox today and lining up emails for the next several podcasts and there's really quite a backlog. So you may not hear it on the podcast, but you'll always hear from me as soon as I possibly can get around to replying to you.

Now, while we were in the mailbag I pointed out that some of the people who sent in emails were backers and if you're a regular reader and listener, if the resources that we've created have helped you, you can return the favor by becoming a scoutmastercgcom backer. The funds that we get from backers go towards the expenses of producing and publishing the blog post and the podcast and all the other resources that are accessible to scouters all over the world.

Now it's easy to become a backer: go to scoutmastercgcom, click the support link at the top of the page and you can choose from several levels of support. Some of them entitle you to premiums, like autograph copies of my books, if if that's what you'd like to do.

I want to take a moment this week to personally thank Michael Allen, Joseph Ellis, Craig Kibler and Mark VanLoon, who we heard just a little bit earlier, who became backers since our last podcast. Thank you so very much, folks. It would be impossible to make this all happen without your support.

So, once again, to become a backer, go to scoutmastercgcom. Look for the support link right there at the top of the page. Become a backer this week and I'll make sure to thank you personally during our next podcast.

So next we're going to start chipping away at the massive mountain of email questions that we've answered in the past several weeks, and that's going to take up the remainder of the podcast. So let's get started, shall we? I need your letter. Send it my name

Email. That is, folks, and here's an answer to one of your emails Heard from Carolyn Enomoto, who wrote in to ask what is your opinion about scouts campaigning for themselves or for others during a senior patrol leader election?

Well, Carolyn, our troop holds an election for senior patrol leader every six months and the mechanics of that are really pretty simple. A week or so before the election, the Scoutmaster make sure to talk with scouts who are going to be candidates for election. It's just a. It's a very brief conversation that confirms that they want to stand for election.

Then, just before we vote, candidates for senior patrol leader get a chance to talk to their fellow scouts and we go on from there. We have to vote immediately. As soon as they're all done talking. We do it in a relative amount of silence.

You know as silent as scouts can be, and that part of it is all over in about 10 or 15 minutes. It's no big deal.

It's very simple and so, uh, you know there's really not what you would call a whole lot of room for campaigning in the way that we do that process not, and that's the way we do things. I don't advertise it as being the right or only way to do things, but it works for us.

I think campaigning for a troop leadership position could cut both ways. It could be useful and it could turn into kind of a mess. Right, it all comes down to how it's handled by the scouts.

Now i've never really encountered a situation where that was a problem before. I've never really heard of scouts campaigning for election for senior patrol leader and i don't really see a whole lot of use in it myself. But that's just me and i'd be interested to hear from any of you that have a different take on the subject. But, carolin, that's my best advice. C scott anderson is a Scoutmaster for troop 96 25 and he wrote in to say thanks again for all the good advice and the good jokes. Good jokes really, scott.

I don't know about that, you may. You might be confusing me with somebody else as a follow-up to the podcast where we've been discussing boards of review out of habit, perhaps our troop committee members only interact with scouts at a border review and apart from that they're not really working with our scouts directly. From your discussion it sounds as though your troop committee, or at least some of them have a regular interaction with the scouts.

If the folks who form the border review work directly with the scouts, does that end up compromising the objectivity of the border review? Well, scott, some of our committee members are more involved in some less. Our current committee chair, for example, is there every time the doors are open and he goes camping with the troop and he's very involved, as is our advancement chairman, for example.

So they're very involved with what's going on and they regularly interact with scouts. I think it's pretty extraordinarily rare and so rare that i can't recall a specific instance where there's any real difficulty revealed at a border review. That may be because the border review folks aren't asking the right questions, but we rarely see any actionable problems or feel as though the the objectivity of the judgment of the board is compromised because the people who are sitting on the border directly involved with the scouts.

Now i guess ideally i'd like somebody who has a lot of interaction with scouts and maybe a couple who don't on any border review and that assures that there's some objectivity there. Many years ago we set aside one of our troop meeting nights and that's usually the one following the weekend we go camping each month for a patrol leaders council to meet and to plan and prepare for the next few meetings and camping trips, and we also have a border review that evening. Usually there is always at least one scout ready to advance and we invite scouts who haven't advanced in some time to come and have a border review as well. Having a regular monthly border review scheduled like that is pretty useful and it helps keep our committee members in the loop. Scott wrote back and he says: i really like the idea of more adults interacting with the scouts and taking a more active role. I'm just not too sure how to make that happen.

You say that scouts who aren't advancing are invited to come to a border review. Well, how exactly does that work and how does the advancement chair know to invite them?

How do i get my advancement chair to take a more active role? Well, scott, i don't mean to be glib, but really you know, ask them to get more involved.

The advancement committee should sit down with the guide to advancement and review their responsibilities and then start forming strategies to carry them out. Now the Scoutmaster is kind of the gateway between the scouts and the committee, so the Scoutmaster ought to know what's going on and help shape those strategies by giving a little general direction.

I mean, we don't want committee members interrupting scouts, you know, during meetings or anything like that, and they may not understand exactly what that means. So i would suggest that you give them some guidance when it comes to that sort of thing.

But as far as what records they keep or how they keep it and how they figure out who to invite to boards review, as i said, start with the guide to advancement 2013, read about the unit advancement committee responsibilities and then start forming some strategies around that. I know that our advancement chair keeps up with individual scouts, looks at how they're doing and how they're advancing, and they're able to do that without interfering with the rest of the process.

James spragley had an interesting kind of technical question, but i think it's a useful one to discuss. He said: is there a requirement to have toilets with running water, not just wilderness toilets, when weeblows camp overnight with boy scouts? As a cub master, years ago, i seem to remember there being a requirement to have facilities with running water.

Does that carry forward when weeblows go on campouts with boy scout troops? I've searched bsa publications but i really can't find anything definitive.

Well, james, that turned out to be a very interesting question. So i did a little research and there is something called the pack overnighter site approval form and that notes some mandatory standards that sites have to meet to qualify as a pack overnight family camping location and i'll make sure there's a link to that form, uh, in the post that contains this podcast.

Now weeblows den leaders learn this in owl training and i'm pretty sure owl is outdoor weeblows leader training so i'm quoting from that syllabus. Weeblows dens are encouraged to participate in joint den troop campouts, particularly in the fifth grade year. These campouts should be conducted with an individual troop for the purpose of strengthening ties between the pack and the troop. Bsa, health and safety, age, appropriate guidelines for cub scout activities and youth protection guidelines of course apply when camping with a troop. Cub scout guides lines still apply for all cub scout members.

Okay, so get that part of the cub scout guidelines that apply when weeblows are camping with a troop will be found on that pack overnighter site approval form. As i said, there are some mandatory standards that sites have to meet to qualify and those are the guidelines that apply to cub scout members and the mandatory applicable standard on that site approval form is that each site is within 300 feet of a sanitary toilet facility.

So i don't know exactly how to interpret that, but i would think that an outhouse or a portable toilet or something like that would work. Now i know what you're saying, clark.

Are you really discussing whether or not we need toilets right nearby when we go camping? Well, i think it's a pretty interesting question if you think about it for a moment.

What's the intent of all this? Well, the intent of all these policies and all those verbiage and training is assuring that weeblows camping with scout troops are in age appropriate surroundings and do age appropriate activities. In other words, we wouldn't take them on a backpacking trip or into the remote back of beyond in a canoe. It's just not age appropriate.

So there are some things that help define what is an age appropriate surrounding and what are age appropriate activities. James got back to me about that. He said: yep, that helps, thank you. This is in line with what our troop has been doing. We had visiting weeblows camping with our troop last week on a private ranch and had portable toilets at the campsite. Next month we're doing a backpacker and we invited weeblows out during the stay on saturday to hang around with our scouts and do some activities in the tame areas of the park near the car parking and bathroom facilities.

Like i said, it's a little technical and it's a little. You know it's going pretty deep into policy and procedure, but you know these are important things and what's really important is to get the principle that underlies them.

And once again, that is when we have weeblows camping with scout troops. We want to make sure the surroundings and the activities are all age appropriate. Also heard from michael beck and he wrote in to say this: i know of a few principles for resolving conflict i'd like to teach scouts.

However, how would you teach the principles of resolving conflict using or leveraging the patrol method? I faced a couple of situations last weekend with scouts not getting along with each other and annoying each other and responding to each other in unkind ways, doing a little teasing and maybe even a little bullying, and their parents are getting involved in all this and it's becoming a bit of a difficulty.

Jumping to the parents and the Scoutmaster is obviously not where we want to be. We want our scouts to learn how to resolve conflicts. Any advice on how to do this, leveraging the patrol method and improving how scouts resolve conflict.

Michael, the first thing i'll say is i would not teach conflict resolution, i would promote the scout oath and law. Now those both seem like they could be exactly the same thing, but let me explain what i mean and augment the explanation that i'm going to give you here. On the podcast i mentioned earlier, we had a post this past week about constructive discipline in scouting, and make sure to check that out because it's right along the lines of what i'm going to say now.

I do a little volunteering work at our, at our local middle school, and there's a big anti-bullying program with all kinds of anti-bullying initiatives and this, of course, i think is a very laudable goal. But i think it's also backfiring in some ways. Students hear all about what bullying is, how to identify it, how to resist it, and any encouragement to better behavior comes into context of what constitutes bullying, rather than defining good behavior on its own.

Do you see what i mean? So, as the result, in the students i work with, they're quick to point out even the least little sign of bullying in each other's speech and actions and, oddly enough, this kind of becomes its own form of bullying, and i think what a program like that misses, especially with students of this age, is that when you define a negative behavior, they're all going to try it out and or they'll become insufferably self-righteous policemen of the problem. And the problem, rather than the solution, becomes the focus. It becomes a thing. It's what they end up talking about. Since we're dealing with boys who are of middle school and high school age, we're going to see the same thing in scouting.

If we start talking about problems, that's what they're going to fixate on. If we start talking about specific individual problems and conflicts with the troop in general, it becomes a thing. This is what they talk about, and they kind of dissect and they discuss and they come up with conclusions on their own that we really might not see as being very constructive.

So the other way of handling this is to start talking about positive things and then that's what the scouts are going to focus on. It's pretty simple.

That way, we have all the raw material we need to do this with the scout: oath and law. It sets the tone, it defines good conduct and it doesn't really mention anything about bad conduct.

But i'm not telling any of you anything you don't already know, right? So in your case, michael, i would start out by speaking with your youth leadership and ask them what's going on and whether or not they find that kind of behavior acceptable. Tell them it's their responsibility to promote a culture of behavior that follows the scout oath and law, and ask them how they plan on making that happen. Now.

No punishment and no discipline is allowed and any further incidents of difficult behavior you're going to want to hear about and then counsel that individual. And when you counsel a scout, you really aren't trying to correct the situation head on or resolve the conflict, because if you sit down with a scout and you try and sort out who said what and when they said it and what happened next, you're really kind of end up wasting your time a little bit.

So instead of doing that, ask them to explain what's going on and start building on an internal standard of contact, informed by the scout oath and law, and i tell a story about that in that post that i mentioned about constructive scouting discipline on the blog this week. So make sure to go check that out and you know.

Basically the process is: tell me about what happened, tell me how this either adheres to or is in conflict with the different ideals that we have in the scout oath and law. Get them thinking along those lines. Then encourage them towards better behavior.

So, instead of looking at this as directly addressing conflicts by sharing the principles of conflict resolution, share the scout oath and law. Do that relentlessly. Whenever scouts behave in a way that's consistent with the scout oath and law, talk about it. Find one thing at least to mention at the end of every troop meeting or every time that you're standing and talking to scouts. Find something positive to say about how somebody behaved. That's not going to end every single instance of difficult behavior, but when you run into difficult behavior, counsel the scouts involved, work along with them and resist the urge to talk about it with a larger group of scouts, because in my experience what happens is anytime we talk about that kind of conflict or difficult behavior, they end up imitating it.

It's and they do it unconsciously. If we talk about positive things, if we talk about how somebody followed the scout oath and law, they end up imitating that and they do it pretty unconsciously at that age. And the last email for this podcast comes from alan schrivener, and alan is the Scoutmaster, troop 342 in raleigh, north carolina, and he wrote in to say this: thank you doesn't begin to express my feeling for what you do. You've opened my eyes to another dimension of scouting every time i look at your site or listen to a podcast.

Well thanks, alan, that i certainly appreciate that. Uh, i'm considering suggesting a change of how our troop operates their weekly meetings, but i've made so many changes in the past two years based on what i've learned from you- and it's your fault, i'll accept all the fault and the blame or the credit it, it really doesn't matter. I would like your advice on whether this next suggestion is worth it. Currently, merit badges, Scoutmaster conferences and board's review happen at our weekly meeting.

Now this makes it easy for boys to advance, but it's frustrating my efforts to encourage the patrol method and for scouts to fulfill their positions of responsibility because they're frequently interrupted to go to a Scoutmaster conference or a border review or to work on a merit badge with a counselor. I'm thinking of suggesting, both through the troop committee and the patrol leaders council, that adults will only be available before on our outings and, as a compromise, perhaps just one meeting time per month.

Am i looking at this through the right lens? Am i trying to be too controlling.

What kind of advice do you have for me as far as this goes? Well, alan, i would say as a general rule, merit badge work doesn't belong at troop meetings by groups or by individuals, and your example about how distracting that is from what scouts ought to be doing during a troop meeting is a great illustration of why that's so. Troop meetings have a different goal. Therefore: planning and preparing for outings, learning skills required for the next adventure.

Now, with very few exception, i mean once or twice a year at a maximum- we simply don't allow merit badge work to happen on troop meeting night now once a month. As i explained in an answer uh, before in this podcast, instead of a troop meeting we have a patrol leaders council, border review opportunity for Scoutmaster conferences and also an opportunity to meet with a merit badge counselor on that night.

So advancement is one of the eight methods of scouting. It certainly should be going on. But if you're spending as much time as it seems strictly on advancement- and it's proving to be a distraction- your scouts are missing out on the other seven aspects of the program.

Now, theoretically, scouts ought to be finding their own merit badge counselors, scheduling meetings with those counselors and not just having one go to counselor in the troop because of the distraction that causes during troop meeting. I know troop base counselors are the norm but i think it shortcuts all of the advantages that are built into the merit badge process in a lot of ways.

So i encourage my scouts to go outside of that small group of counselors and you know they've been pretty successful in making that happen. So discuss what a troop meeting night should be with your patrol leaders council.

You know, point out that you're seeing some distractions and some difficulties with the way things are now. Talk through this with them, help them discover some new strategies and then make some decisions about when you do what troop meeting nights are for- troop meetings. And that doesn't involve merit badge work and we don't want our guys distracted by different advancement concerns and things like that.

We want them focused on what needs to happen. Now, once you've had that discussion with the patrol leaders council, tell the other adults what's going to happen next. As i say often, you're the Scoutmaster that they chose. You lead the other adults and you tell them in no uncertain terms. If they have something wrong, don't be shy about it. You have the program to back you up now.

They might not be too thrilled about this, but they picked you as the Scoutmaster right, so i hope that helps everybody. If you have a question for me, you can get in touch. It's easy to get in touch and you're going to find out how to do that in just a moment.