Scoutmaster Podcast 231

I'm Russell Altman and I am an assistant scoutmaster with Truth, Number 555 in Ridge Spring, South Carolina. This edition of the Scoutmaster Podcast is sponsored by Backers Like Us.

And now the old scoutmaster. What you heard there, that was my scouts, my troop, Last week cheering in the dining hall.

We were at summer camp and we had a wonderful time.

This is Podcast Number 231.. Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clarke Green. I was away at camp all last week and we sent you video letters from summer camp. And, man, we got a fantastic response with dozens of email messages and questions And those are all in the videos And I came back home to a full mailbag.

So let's get into that real quick. We heard from Tony Lucaba, who is an assistant scoutmaster with Truth 581 in Bristow, Virginia. Tony said I really enjoyed your letters from summer camp. As usual, your messages are informative and entertaining. Thanks for all your hard work. Our scoutmaster sends email updates once or twice during the week when our troop is off to summer camp.

I'm thinking with today's newfangled technology we could step into the present and do our own video message to provide updates to parents. Hey, Tony, that sounds like a really good idea. Ella Marie Kazell is with Troop 1 in Akron, Ohio. We just returned from our week at beautiful camp Manitoc in Peninsula Ohio. I like seeing how you do things at Camp Horseshoe.

Can you show us a campsite? Well, I'll tell you what, Ella Marie. Go to any one of last week's posts with the letters from summer camp. You'll find a link to the Horseshoe Scout Reservation website And they'll do a lot better job of telling you about the sites and all that than I can. Your dining hall looks massive.

How many do you have at camp? Well, there's about anywhere between 250 and 300 scouts and you know 80 to 150 adults at any given week. There's a full eight week season. Love the letters from camp makes me miss being there.

Thanks so much for getting in touch, Ella Marie. I really do appreciate it. Atik Riemann got in touch and said hi and greetings from Forest Law and Scout Reservation in Cedar Glen, California. I'm here participating in summer camps as an international camp staff member from Pakistan And I hear the Scoutmaster podcast, Forest Law and Scout Reservation radio.

Well, that's exactly right And that's being played during the summer there And I really appreciate you getting in touch with me. Atik Liz wrote to say aloha. I had to say hi. When I saw the live chat button, I discovered your webpage and blog this past year. I've been a scouter for 10 years. Thank you for keeping up the flame.

Mahalo, Well, Mahalo to you too, Liz, and thanks for getting in touch. If I'm around and I'm working on the site, I will turn on the live chat feature and we can have a live chat If I'm not there.

Well, the chat button always works and you can send me a quick message that way. But I'm always glad to hear from you and having people get in touch.

As noted earlier, we were summer camp last week with the troop. In a week from today, Actually, my wife and I get on a plane to Kondersteg in the Burner Oberland of Switzerland and we have an actual vacation. That's right.

So next week is my vacation week And then the week following we're going to be back hard at work doing what Scouts do, because I will be meeting with a group of our Scouts who will be traveling over to Kondersteg And we're going to be staying at Kondersteg International Scout Center there in Switzerland And I'll be sending dispatches related to our experience, kind of like the letters I sent from summer camp. That's not next week, but the following, And I hope you find those interesting.

Kondersteg is just a beautiful place and I can't wait to share it with you, So I'm happy to get in the podcast. This week.

I've got lots of email questions to answer, But before we do that, people ask: how do we make all this happen? As you heard at the top of the podcast, we have backer. If you find what we're offering is helping you in your work as a scouter, you can return the favor by joining the growing number of scouts who financially support the creation of this and all the other resources associated with ScoutmasterCGcom and become a backer. Go to ScoutmasterCGcom, click on the support link at the top of the page and learn how you can help.

And I want to take a moment to specifically thank Tom Kepley and Brad Ayers for becoming backers since our last podcast, since podcast 230.. Well, as I said, I've got a ton of email questions to answer and that's going to take up the rest of the podcast.

So let's get started. Shall we Come swing along to a hiking song on the highway, winding west, Tramping highland plains and tracking bends to grip the aisles We love the best? Find me a letter, send it by name.

Email, that is folks. And here's an answer to one of your emails. Keith Kingery is the Scoutmaster of Troop 2 in Picayune, Mississippi, And he wrote in to say: I really enjoy the podcast and the blog. Thanks for the time and dedication that you put into it. I'd like to hear your reflections on Baden Powell's thinking about ought to understand what it's like to be a scout. I recall him saying things of finding the joy in the same old mud puddle as the young scout and being able to enter into their dreams and ambitions.

How do you think that we do that today? Well, Keith, well, I don't seek out friendship with my scouts.

I do enjoy being one of their friends, And there's really a difference between striving to become one of their friends and simply being welcomed into that circle of friends. I'm not one of them. I'm an adult, I'm 54 years old. In their lives I have a very specific purpose. I'm their Scoutmaster.

Now I get the opportunity to join in their fun from time to time. I just welcome those opportunities when they present themselves.

Now, I might not share their taste in popular culture and, truth be told, I do my best to take as little notice of it as possible. I'm careful not to complain about their enthusiasm in music or the way that they dress or other similar passing fads, because you know what? Another new one is going to come along soon And it seems to be the birthright of every generation to drive the subsequent generation of their parents absolutely up a wall with the music that they like and the way that they dress and the way that they talk. As long as it's not totally inappropriate and outside of the Scout Oath and Law, I turn as much of a blind eye as possible to it.

I think first and foremost our scouts need us to be ourselves. They need adults who can see things from their perspective. But they don't need another peer level friend, because they have plenty of those. They need an adult who understands what it's like to be their age and what it's like to be a Scout and is willing to help them and give them encouragement. Frank is a Scoutmaster and he wrote in to say: I recently completed my first summer camp as Scoutmaster.

Do you feel that an assistant Scoutmaster or any adult leader should be assigned full-time to shadow first-year campers for the entire week they're at camp? We seem to return home with a lot of incomplete merit badges with our first-year campers than in previous years. Thanks for what you do for scouting in Scoutmasters. I really enjoy your site.

Well, Frank. I really feel that adults should never be shadowing scouts in any situation.

They should be observing, perhaps giving a little bit of guidance here and there, but as so far as making things like that happen and resolving those difficulties, they have patrol leaders and a senior patrol leader to do that. And I do know what you mean about managing merit badges and all that business at camp and it does seem that an adult would be the most appropriate person to do that.

But you know what I've had? Very good success when all of those responsibilities are placed squarely in the hand of the patrol leaders and the senior patrol leader. We'll help them figure out the particulars, but from the get-go it's clear that they are responsible to help the younger Scouts advance and to complete merit badges and things. Andy McDonald is the Scoutmaster of Troop 196 in Winter Springs, Florida. Our newer Scouts that crossed over this year have what seems to be extreme separation anxiety. I'm not talking about your normal kind of homesickness on day three of summer camp.

I'm talking about crying Jags for no apparent reason at a one or two night monthly camp out. I guess I'm quick to blame the parents for this phenomenon.

However, have you seen this kind of thing? What do you suggest is a possible solution?

Well, Andy, what you describe is kind of a new one on me. It may not be the parents fault altogether and parents may have nothing to do with it. Different groups of Scouts: I've seen different groups of Scouts influence each other in a multitude of different ways And maybe this kind of crying thing is something that they cause in each other.

Now, from what I understand and what you've written, they've been on several camping trips where this happens. So they're still going camping, right? I mean, that simple fact tells me this is something that I wouldn't particularly worry about or pay much attention to. The Scouts will likely resolve it themselves at some point.

Now, if this happened once and they never went back camping, well, that's a problem I'd need to think about. But if it's something that happens routinely, I don't know that I'd pay it much, if any attention Indeed. The attention that you're paying to it might be one reason that it keeps going on. That is a new one on me. That's the best advice I can come up with to handle it. I heard from Gretel, who said: I have some argument amongst Assistant Scoutmasters in the committee as to what the six month terms for the Patrol Leaders Council should be.

Have you any advice? Well, has anyone asked the Scouts what they would prefer to do about this? I've found they usually have much better answers than adults- and it is their troop after all.

So I would go to them and present the conundrum to them and ask them what they think a good idea would be, And they'll probably come up with an excellent answer. Mike Horrocks is with Troop and Crew 215 in Carmel, Indiana, And he writes in to say thanks for putting all of this effort together. I'd love listening to the podcast.

One of my co-workers, who is another listener during our scouting discussions, asked what would Clark do? But now I've got a question for you. For years I've been a Marriott Badge Counselor and I've helped a lot of Scouts earn Marriott Badges.

Now I have sons who are in a scout troop And while I continue to help other Scouts earn the Marriott Badges, I feel that it would be a conflict to counsel these badges for my own son. I'm afraid that at a border review somewhere someone will ask about that and they'll feel like I may have given them to them. And while there is nothing against policy on my counseling my sons that I'm aware of, actually I'm pretty sure I would demand at least as high level, if not a higher level of quality, from my sons.

So maybe that's where my hesitation is coming from. Anyway, should I just get over it and play the role of counselor for my sons, or should I stay away from it all together?

Well, Mike, thanks for getting in touch, And the short answer is: get over it. And the really long answer is: while you're in your dad role with your sons, you're a dad. While you're in your Marriott Badge Counselor role, you're a Marriott Badge Counselor to a scout. You're not a dad to your son.

Now, your sons have two roles too- Scouts and Sons, And they shouldn't feel like they have to occupy both those roles at once, and neither should you. If you want to counsel the badges for your son, go right ahead. Don't over or under, do anything, And that can be harder than it sounds, I know.

Just be clear about what role you are in and what role they are in if you counsel a Marriott Badge for them And then don't switch back and forth between roles while you're doing it And I'll tell you with your sons. They probably get this anyway and they'll give you one of those jeez dad eye rolls when you talk about this, But it's a worthy conversation to have if you're going to counsel the badges with them. As for a possible question at a border review, anyone asking that question is saying a lot more about themselves than the scout they're questioning.

There are a few people out there who are so wrapped around their own axle they think they need to be inquisitors and defenders of the sacred advancement requirements. But I've kind of learned to ignore them and I never allow them anywhere near one of my scouts.

There is no policy against parents counseling Marriott Badges for their own sons and there is also no review process for Marriott Badges. A counselor's signature is the end of the matter and the question like the one that you think might come up at a border review probably never should. If the whole thing just really, really bugs you, there's no harm in, no foul in telling your sons that even though you could counsel the badges for them, you'd just rather not because it just doesn't seem like a good idea to you.

I'm sure they will probably understand and so will everybody else. Finally, I'd point out that if there is indeed a Marriott Badge, counselor would fast track his own son for something like this. They wouldn't even consider asking this question anyways.

The fact that it's on your radar means you're an honest, honorable person, so give yourself a pat on the back. Allison wrote in and said: I had a question about blue cards.

Once we finish the Marriott Badge, do we tear them apart and give them to the counselor or the scout in the advancement committee, or are we supposed to keep them together? We're having some disagreements about how we're supposed to handle this and our truth.

Well, Allison, the best way to resolve those disagreements is to make sure everyone has a copy of the Guide to Advancement 2013, where the procedures and policies about blue cards are spelled out quite clearly. It's freely available as a PDF document online and it's pretty easy to find. The section on Marriott Badges contains a detailed description of how the application for a Marriott Badge is administered, and the short story is is that, as you suspect, the counselor retains the counselor. Third, the scout holds on to the scout. Third, and the unit holds on to the unit. Third.

That's why it's perforated, So you can take those sections apart from one another. George Zach is with Boy Scout Troops 767 in Broomfield, Colorado. During the conversation we had recently, one of my scouts was a little put off with the fact that you could qualify for higher ranks by being something like a librarian or a scribe or a historian, because he didn't feel those were leadership roles, because in those roles you more or less are serving your fellow scouts instead of actually giving them leadership. I also hear a fair amount of grumbling about these quote, lesser unquote positions being applied to rank advancement. I'd be curious what you have to say and I look forward to your input.

Well, George, I'm going to make a very controversial, shocking and completely true statement. We aren't aimed at making leaders or training leaders. That's right. We aren't. That's not our principal aim. I'll agree that one of the many things that we do for our scouts is give them the chance to learn something about leadership and develop the skills that are required of any leader, but developing leaders is not our single aim.

I'll take the opportunity to say that we are, to my mind at least, way, way overboard and way too focused on the whole leadership development paradigm part of scouting. We aren't aimed at producing leaders to the exclusion of all else, and I think we get really side tracked into that sometimes. There are two or three important statements of what we really are aimed at. The first is the BSA mission statement and it reads like this: the mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the scout oath and scout law. And the second one is a statement about the aims of scouting from the Scoutmaster Handbook. Every scouting activity moves boys towards three basic aims: character development, citizenship training and mental and physical fitness.

Now look at those two statements. They pretty well define what the aim of our work is, and you don't see leadership mentioned at all. Making people into leaders is actually really not all that difficult. There are plenty of opportunities for that in a young person's life.

I think if you read either statement you'd agree that the virtues represented by the scout oath and law and all the things that we're aimed at producing- people of good character and good citizenship and mental and physical fitness- are all constituents of being a leader. But there's a whole lot more going on, isn't there?

Now imagine a vocational training program that was aimed at producing trained, competent carpenters right If they spent 80% of their time focused on perfecting swinging a hammer, to the exclusion of other important things about the job. They'd produce really good hammer swingers, but poor carpenters.

Does a carpenter have to know how to swing a hammer? Well, sure he does, but that's just one piece of a bigger puzzle.

Do we develop leadership skills in scouting? Sure, we do, but it's only one element and it's not the end of the aim itself.

The whole matter, I think, is handled very, very well and very succinctly in the Guide to Advancement 2013, and here's the section. Are you ready?

You got your pencil ready? It's section 4.2.3.4.6. It really will help you find it. And that section is titled Responsibility and Leadership and it reads thusly: Many suggest this requirement should call for a position of leadership rather than simply of responsibility. Taking an accepting responsibility, however, is a key foundation for leadership. One cannot lead effectively without it.

The requirement, as written, recognizes the different personalities, talents and skill sets in all of us. Some seem destined to be the quote leader of the group, unquote. Others provide quality support and strong examples behind the scenes. Without the latter, leaders in charge have little chance for success. Thus, the work of the supporters becomes part of the overall leadership effort.

So, even though it might sound a little heretical and it might give you pause, I'm going to say that scouting is not a school of leadership. It's a movement that has much wider aims. The arguments about this usually end up circling around when, and becoming the most strident when, we're discussing an Eagle Scout. If you take a little time to review the requirements, you won't find the word leadership mentioned except in association with the Eagle Project, which is designed for a Scout to demonstrate his ability to lead and to serve others.

Now, will our Scouts go on to become leaders in life? Yes, some of them will.

Will they be responsible, contributing citizens who are able to make good moral and ethical choices? Well, that's really the entire aim in scouting, isn't it? Our entire aim is not aimed at producing leaders.

So let's focus on the real aim of scouting and not get ourselves sidetracked into too many things. So I've said all that to say this, George: The practical answer to the concern that was expressed to you about the difference between responsibility and leadership is that we want people to first be responsible, to become good citizens of good character. That's the aim of scouting. If they become leaders as a result of that.

That's also a very positive outcome, isn't it? Our work is focused on the broader aim of scouting and not at just one single aspect of it. Listen, if you have a comment or a question, you can get in touch, and you're going to find out how to do that in just a moment.