Scoutmaster Podcast 212

Hi, I'm Steven Jarvis and I'm comester with Pac-46 in Fayetteville, Arkansas. This edition of the Scout Mentor Podcast is sponsored by backers like me.

And now it's the old Scoutmaster. You know I was going over how to read a topographic map and I pointed out lots of things on the map.

You know mountains and valleys and a plateau. I said, well, you know, this is a plateau, And one of my scouts wanted to know exactly what a plateau was.

So I told him that it's the highest form of flattery. Oh, come on now.

That's a real beaut, isn't it? Oh, my well, this is podcast number 212..

Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clarke Green. Let's take a look in the mailbag and see what we've got waiting for us here. Awesome show, said Z-Bug over on iTunes, who left a five-star review for us. Thank you, Clark, for the great podcast. I look forward to it every week.

The show's professional And to the point. It's helping me guide our scouts. Thank you again.

Hey, thanks so much for that lovely review. I really do appreciate it. James Kangus got in touch with us via LinkedIn. He said: just dropping you a note. I discovered the Scout Circle webcast and watched the entire hour with Enoch Hysie. I look forward to watching the previous Scout Circle videos and look forward to the new ones.

Thanks, James. I'm glad you enjoyed the Scout Circle that we did with Enoch last month. If you haven't checked that out, folks go right to ScoutMasterCGcom. Follow the Scout Circle link and you'll find all the Scout Circle webcasts that we've recorded over the past year. Jeff Cavistad is the Scoutmaster with Troop 965 in Kuwait City, Kuwait.

You'll remember an interview we did with Jeff back last year on one of our podcasts And he wrote in to say: I finally became a backer and I'm happy to join this August Circle. I continue to listen to your podcasts on the way to work here in warm, sunny Kuwait. We do know how much snow and cold you have experienced this winter.

Well, thanks, Jeff. I think My family and I are moving back to the States on June 1st, so I only have a few months left as Scoutmaster of Troop 965 here in Kuwait. Take care, I'll keep on listening.

Well, thanks so much, Jeff. It's good to hear from you and thank you so much for becoming a backer. I'm going to tell everybody else how they can do that in just a moment. We heard from Steve Cattrell and he's with Cub Scout Pack 3623 in Shepherd, Michigan. And Steve wrote in to say I really enjoyed your conversation with Bess Elwell Cook in podcast 210.. I've told my Girl Scout leader wife that she should listen to it.

Many of the things Bess mentioned about Girl Guides in Australia are very similar to what happens here in the Girl Scouts. Thanks again for all your hard work.

Well, thanks for listening, Steve. Just goes to show that scouting is the same no matter where you are, And that's one of the greatest things about it, isn't it? Jerry Fish wrote in to say: great info on the podcast.

I've got a leadership training session soon and I want to play the song My Favorite Boy Scout. Can you tell me where I can find that? And at the same time I'll tell everybody else: go to scoutmastercgcom and look for the post that contains podcast 212, and I'll have a link to where you can get that song.

So this week over at scoutmastercgcom, on Wednesday, March 12th, from 7 to 8 pm, Enoch Hysie is going to be online for a live Green Bar Life Chat. As you've heard several times in the past, Enoch is the author of our Green Bar Life Articles at ScoutmasterCG And he's going to make himself available for that hour to chat with Scouts about youth leadership. That's going to be Wednesday. This Wednesday, March 12th, from 7 to 8 pm. You heard earlier about becoming a backer, and it's pretty simple. If you're a regular reader or listener and you're finding what we offer has helped you, you can help us keep things up and running by becoming a scoutmastercgcom backer.

Funds from backers go towards the expenses of producing and publishing the blog posts and the podcasts and all the other resources and keeping them freely accessible to scouts all over the world. And I want to make sure to thank Jeff Kvistad and Kevin Yandell, who both signed on as backers this week.

Thank you so much for helping us keep things going here. Over the past couple of weeks we've had a couple of interviews as major parts of the podcast, And that means that the email questions have been piling up.

So in this podcast we're going to answer a big pile of email questions And that's going to take up the remainder of the podcast. So let's get started, shall we? You were always on the beat boy, beat boy. You were always on the beat boy, beat boy. I'll hang it in the street boy, street boy.

We were dancing to the beat boy, beat boy. Write me a letter, send it by name Email. That is folks.

And here's an answer to one of your emails. Brock Ford is the Scoutmaster Boy Scout Troop 53 in Maytown, Pennsylvania. He wrote in to say I discovered your podcast and blog about three months ago after I was approached to become a Scoutmaster. Last night was my first official meeting as Scoutmaster and it was a train wreck. The troop of 20 scouts are essentially acting as one big patrol and they didn't have much planned for last night. To make things more difficult, a new scout just crossed over and dad was displeased by the disorganization and horse play at his son's first scout meeting.

We've discussed really implementing the patrol method and our patrol leaders council has agreed. Last night, the youth leaders worked on deciding how to reorganize patrols. I realized that this is a long process and that the scouts need lots of guidance, since I don't think most of them would have any idea of what it means to be a patrol leader, I have a few questions for you.

We have a court of honor coming up and we want the scouts to lead most of it, so I was wondering if you have any ideas or a template for a simple court of honor. Traditionally, we've saved all the rank and merit badge patches until the court of honor, but when I asked about this, I sense everyone is agreeable to giving the award out as soon as possible and recognizing it again at the court of honor.

Do you usually have youth give out all the patches at the court of honor, or do Scoutmasters usually give out things? I also wanted to ask about how you handle your Scoutmaster minute. We haven't had one as a part of our troop meetings and I'm wondering best how to get this started. We usually do lots of announcements at the end of the meeting and I know the scouts get tired of this because it takes a long time.

So the Scoutmaster would be humorous or inspirational or mix it up Well. Brock, first of all, thanks for getting in touch and congratulations on becoming a Scoutmaster.

I want you to zoom out a little bit because, as a new Scoutmaster, you're going to have a million details on your plate. So instead of focusing on those details, let's zoom out and look at the whole picture. From that perspective you'll begin to learn what's really important and you'll get those things right and many of the details will take care of themselves.

Disorganized, difficult kind of chaotic meetings are nothing that I want you to aim at trying to fix, no matter how many parents grumble about them, and I don't want you to aim at fixing the meetings, because they're going to fix themselves as you empower and train your youth leaders. I've been doing this for 30 years now and I've got to tell you most of our troop meetings would be regarded as chaotic and disorganized to any casual observer. Learn to look for promising moments and initiatives. You'll see in your youth leaders, and these will appear to be very small and insignificant at first- and build on these with a whole lot of praise and effort. You're correct in saying that this is a long process, and that's true, because it never stops. It never arrives at completion.

You'll never reach a point where you have totally arrived at anything resembling perfection. The nature of our work as Scoutmasters is building skills and competency in youth leadership. As soon as they become competent in one area, they move on to new challenges. You'll always be developing, but you'll never be finished. It's not just a long process, it is an infinitely long process.

So your measured and responsive guidance to the initiative you see in your youth leaders is important, but it's easy to go way too far. A new patrol leader needs to learn what to do in the next hour, not what he needs to do in the next year. I will tell you from my experience: adults tend to over instruct and their guidance becomes interference. If we're not cautious, You won't ever have a cadre of wholly competent, fully functioning patrol leaders. But, handled the right way, You'll have a lot of energized, engaged Scouts learning some very important things. As for the Court of Honor, it's not about getting things right or wrong.

It's about understanding the principles behind why we have something called the Court of Honor. If you haven't already get a copy of the Guide to Advancement 2013 and read about Courts of Honor and Recognition, The directions and answers there are better than any I'm going to be able to give you and then, taking those principles, apply them to the Court of Honor you're about to have.

One of the things you'll learn when you read the Guide to Advancement 2013 is that we want Scouts to be recognized for their achievements as soon as possible. So, yes, we present them with the badge as soon as we have it and we hold on to the certificate that comes with the badge to present at the Court of Honor. As for the Scoutmaster Minute, that's the only adult who has a speaking role at troop meetings. And, yes, you can mix it up, it can be humorous, it can be inspiring, but it needs to be right there at a minute, and a minute is 60 seconds long.

So I find that I need to practice sometimes, otherwise I'll just keep going on and on and on. And Scouts, they don't have time for that, do they? I would tell the other adults in your troop: if they have something to announce, they can write it down and you or the senior patrol leader will take care of making the announcement at the end of the meeting. Not everybody is going to like this at first, but stand firm. If you have this big, unfettered, open-ended announcements time at the end of a Scout Meeting, people are going to find things to say and they're going to take a lot of time saying that If you go by the principle that the Scoutmaster has the only adult speaking role at a troop meeting.

You know, just as a rule of thumb, people will begin to get on board, get them to write those things down and then, in my opinion, you really want the senior patrol leader making those announcements. So around here we call becoming a Scoutmaster jumping into the volcano. It's a little overwhelming at first, but don't worry. As you get some experience and observe what is going on with your Scouts, you'll gain confidence in your judgment of what's important and what isn't. Take all the time you can to study and learn about your role and put that knowledge to work. If your heart's in the right place, it's not likely you're going to do any harm.

What you'll do is a lot of good. Vin Cervantes is in Massachusetts and he asked: have you ever written or spoken about calling Scouts Scouts rather than boys or kids?

Well, hey, Vin, I can't recall ever really going into much depth on the question. I know that I sent this out as a tweet a while back. If you want your Scouts to act like Scouts, call them Scouts. If you call them kids, they'll act like kids.

I think it is true. I think you tend to get what you expect. And if you want your Scouts to act like Scouts and to be Scouts. I would avoid calling them anything else. Gary Gomez works with Boy Scout Troop in San Diego, California, and he wrote in to ask: I was curious as to what you think about having prerequisites for positions of responsibility, such as age or number of years in Scouting, etc.

Should a Scout be required to be a patroller before being allowed to run for senior patroller? I can see both pros and cons, wondering what your experience is.

Well, Gary, I think either way works In my troop. In my troop, we don't have prerequisites for this and things seem to go fine. Scouts make very good decisions. They have prerequisites in their own minds when they're voting for a patroller or senior patroller. Scouts ought to be reminded about the seriousness of it and when they take it seriously, they'll make very good choices.

What I've found is, if we create these kind of rules, we can set up a whole list of prerequisites that Scouts need to have before they can run for patroller or senior patroller. As soon as the ink dries on those rules, we're faced with a situation that's an exception to the rule.

So I'm not saying that you can't have them. What I'm saying is, in my experience, you don't need them. I am withholding the name of the person who sent me this next email for what will become obvious reasons. I've been following your blog and your opinion on all things scouting. My son is 15, a high school sophomore, and has almost completed everything he needs to become an Eagle Scout. He's been an active youth leader and scout.

He's earned his religious emblems. He's active in the OA. He's been to two national jamborees.

He's been to Fillmont, Northern Tier, and he's headed to Seabase over Spring Break this year and then back to Northern Tier this summer with the OA program. He's a former medal. He's also in the international baccalaureate program at school. He loves scouting and all it has to offer, especially those high adventure opportunities. Our troop has recently formed what they call a venture patrol, but my son is a little put off by the fact that he's been presented with a venture patrol contract and the contract has a number of stipulations. One is that scouts have to be 14 and older, they have to be 15 and higher and they have to have over 70% attendance in the past six months.

They also must attend and participate in 75% of the meetings, troop outing and service projects, and it says in the contract if their attendance is too low or there are three- quote- unexcused absences- unquote- the Scoutmaster has a discretion to take punitive action towards them. It says they have to wear the uniform correctly and set an example in behavior. And set an example. It says on camp out the venture patrol won't be able to set up their camp until the entire troop is set up. That the venture patrol runs the Sunday night campfire on every camp out. That the venture patrol has got to be the last ones to bed and the first ones up in the morning.

And finally, it says that any high adventure activities that the venture patrol plans can't compete with the regularly scheduled troop activities. I looked at this contract with my son and there are a lot of things in it that don't sit well with either of us. I assume it was created without any youth input. It seems more exclusionary, designed to keep scouts out rather than keep them engaged in the scouting program. It all seems kind of heavy handed, with punitive undertones on the adult side. I would very much appreciate any insight you might have about this.

Wow, well, every once in a while it's just amazing how many different ways we can find to squelch the enthusiasm of scouts. I'm going to be a little snarky here, but I'll bet that the adults that came up with this contract are all men, because women are usually quite a bit smarter when it comes to this type of thing.

Now, from what I read in this email, here's a scout who would do all the things on this contract voluntarily, but he's turned off by the idea of somebody forcing him to do them and who wouldn't be. Frankly, perhaps I can offer an explanation of why this feels and why this is so wrong.

It's the first point of the scout law and that is what a scout is trustworthy. The explicit message of requiring a contract from a scout is that without a way to force you to do things, we can't trust you or respect your word.

Now, in a business context, or good, necessary tools in scouting, I find them downright offensive as well as inimical to the entire foundation of our work. A scout is trustworthy. You can't reduce trustworthiness to a piece of paper and, as any parent knows, you're not going to force a 15 year old to do anything because he's put his name on a contract. If you want to get all legalistic about it, minors can't sign contracts. I know that a contract like this isn't going to go to a court of law, but that fact is kind of indicative of how very wrong-headed this is. Contracts like this don't change hearts and minds or build character.

They actually undermine this. Now listen, I know that the scouters who came up with this idea are well intentioned and I'm sure they have good hearts, but they're setting themselves up as enforcers and bosses rather than mentors and advisors. They don't understand this yet and they will only see it after it fails to work for them and this sort of thing almost inevitably backfires.

Now, how can I be so sure about this? I've done it myself. I found that it was a mistake. I stopped doing it, and me and my scouts were happier for it, I can tell you.

So I would sit down with your son and I would ask him what he wants to do and then help him make this happen. If what he wants to do is get out and do more adventurous things, then he can be the one who gets everybody moving.

Where does he want to go? What does he want to do? If none of the adults in his troop are willing to make this happen for him, he can go looking for adults that are helping scouts make this happen now. Naturally he's loyal to his troop and to his fellow scouts, but that loyalty shouldn't restrict them from doing great things. Scouts who see this sort of spirit and this kind of engagement and excitement about scouting as a threat to their program because, oh my gosh, the scout might plan something that conflicts with our plans- they're just plain wrong and they end up losing the loyalty and interest of scouts, like your son, because of it. We do our best work as scouts when we find a way to make things happen for scouts rather than trying to control all the variables.

Andrew West is an assistant Scoutmaster with troop 501 in Cleveland, Ohio and he writes to ask this: what is the ideal troop size? I've read that Lord Baden Powell said a troop size of 32 is ideal because you end up with about 4 patrols of 8 boys. But I've seen troops who are effective from 6 to over 100 scouts.

What would be the largest a troop would be? Instill, deliver the promise of scouting and ensure that every scout gets the best possible experience. Our troop has experienced tremendous growth.

If we look into the future- maybe 2 or 3 years- we could easily well be north of 100 scouts. Myself and other adults are asking ourselves: how do we know if we're getting too big? I know there's no hard or fast rules or a specific number, but any thoughts on this topic was appreciated.

I appreciate all you do and your very well know nonsense views on scouting. Well, Andrew, thank you so much for getting in touch.

Here's the thing: scouting does have a scale. For instance, we know patrols work best when they number between 6 and 10, but the size of troops is really an open question. What's really important is patrols. The patrol is the scale of scouting. Baden Powell frequently emphasize that a scout should never feel as though he's just member of a great, vast herd of scouts. Any scout should know and work with his patrol and feel that he's known and appreciated in his patrol and in his troop.

Youth leaders also need to be able to work and plan at a scale that's realizable for them. Some big troops pull this off very well and I think they make this happen because they emphasize patrols, youth leadership and then they make sure that each individual scout gets the attention they deserve. The temptation, however, with a big troop is to manage scouts and herds rather than individuals or patrols.

This herd approach is really very pragmatic and many troops, large and small, tend to do things that way because it's easier and there's a scale at which youth leaders are very good and you get too far beyond that scale and things start to erode a little bit. If a troop runs on the herd plan, youth leaders are usually marginalized and adults are doing most of the work. I will tell you that our troop has hovered at around 30 for all the time I've been involved. I have to do some pretty high stepings as a Scoutmaster to keep up with conferences and to work with youth leaders. I know some Scoutmasters are able to make this happen with a troop of 60 or 100, but I got to tell you it would be beyond me.

Even so, I think the size of a troop is immaterial so long as they are operating the patrol system, assuring there's plenty of opportunity for developing youth leadership and paying individual attention to their scouts. As you say, there's no right or wrong answers, but there are sound principles by which we can arrive at a conclusion. Here's another anonymous email. I have a vexing problem. I have a scout who, from what I've heard him passing from the other scouts, will not be welcome in any patrol. He's been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome and finds it difficult to sit.

Still, he can be disruptive and he doesn't stay on task. His parents do keep an eye on him during meetings and outings, though how do I advise my patrol leaders counsel about working with the scout and making sure that he is included in a patrol?

Well, I would sit down with your patrol leaders counsel and I would ask them some questions. First question I would ask is: do you think that any boy, regardless of whether he has any limitations or difficulties, should be welcome in our troop? I would be interested in what their answers are and I would be interested in discussing this with them in the context of the scout oath and law. I would also ask them if they knew of any scouts in our troop at present who they feel may have issues that would make it difficult for them to participate or to join in sometimes- and they are very likely going to know exactly what you're talking about and come up with the name of the scout you mentioned- then I would start asking them some questions about this scouts behavior.

Do you think that he is misbehaving intentionally? I mean, that's a question that they may not have considered themselves, and that question and their answers can lead you into a conversation about differences. I would tell the patrol leaders counsel that we all feel individually that we are the outside, or sometimes we feel like people don't understand or appreciate us, and I would ask them if any of them have ever felt that way and how that feels.

And then I would ask them if they would ever intentionally try to make somebody feel as though they were an outsider or they weren't understood or appreciated. Scouts get this. They know that they promise to be friendly, helpful and kind.

That's something we usually think about as individuals, but can they tell you how they do that as a group of scouts? Can they be helpful, friendly and kind? As a patrol leaders counsel, you may have a story about how you overcame first impressions in the frustration of dealing with somebody who had limitations over which they had no control. You can share that story and tell the scouts that it took a lot of work to understand what was going on at first, but you applied the scout law to the situation and you're glad you made the effort. Maybe you can recall an instance in your youth where you failed to do this, because I know I can share the regrets you feel and tell your scouts how you would like to have the chance to go back in time and make that right, but you can't.

Now the message is clear. No, scout is a burden, he's your brother scout, and we never let our brother scout down. It can take some extra effort and patience on our part, but that's why we're scouts. In the end you'll find that all the effort was worth it, because not only have you helped someone, but you also earned a new friend. I'm going to withhold the name in this next email too.

Could you offer your thoughts on dealing with brothers in a troop setting? My senior patrol leader has a younger brother. I've often told him he needs to treat his younger brother as he would any other scout, but despite my request, he still treats him differently. Sometimes he's belittling or difficult with his younger brother.

Well, when it comes to any family relationship- and that's brother to brother to children or husband and wife- there needs to be some straight talk that draws a line between family roles and scouting roles. Now, I'm not suggesting that family roles are less important than scouting roles, but there needs to be a dividing line. When mom is in her Scoutmaster role, she's not mom anymore and her son is not a son. Her son is a scout. When the older brother is a senior patrol leader, he's not an older brother anymore. The older patrol leader and his younger brother is a scout.

There's a dividing line. Outside of scouts, we have one role.

In scouts, we have another role. What I'm saying is that any family relationship needs some specific attention and discussion from both parties, who agree that there's a difference in the roles that they have depending on whether they're in scouts or out of scouts. Sometimes a trusted mediator or maybe the parent of these brothers will be beneficial in helping people sort this out. And to wind things up, I have two emails, both anonymous, but they basically have the same answer.

The first one says this: this summer our troop is going on a long trip, so we're chartering a bus. The bus charter saves adults an entire vacation day for this trip, since we're going to be able to drive through the night. The other adult wants to drive himself with a couple of other adults who don't really feel like they want to ride on the bus. My objection to this is that this is a group trip and if they aren't with the group, they somehow become special.

The other adults who are going to be asking themselves: if these guys get to drive, why can't I drive? So hold that in your mind for a moment and let me read this other email. This weekend our troop went on a camp out about four hours away from our departure. They were going to drive together in the same car and take three of our new scouts and friends earlier.

We asked them not to do that and to leave with everybody else, so the group would be traveling together, but they ignored us and they went on their own. That same group left an hour early when we were getting ready to go. They just got in their cars and drove home. They didn't help break camp or even let us know they were leaving. Both of those situations. And let's begin by saying: scout camping trips are for scouts and they go camping together in patrols.

Scout camping trips are not for adults and they're not for families. We aren't going camping because it's a recreational activity open to everybody who wants to tag along. We're going camping with some very specific goals in mind. The patrolling camp is the whole reason we're doing this in the first place. We meet to prepare for camping.

We go camping so patrols can work together and grow as scouts. Everything else about it: the places that we go, the things that we do when we get there, the things that the scouts learn. That's kind of fringe benefits on top of the fact that patrols are going camping. That's the real heart of what we do.

Not every parent is going to understand this, so we need to tell them that there are some trips when parents are invited, but otherwise adult attendance on camping trips is included to registered and trained leaders. Now, before I go any further, let me remind you that what you're hearing is my opinion. It is not official policy from any scouting organization. This is just the way that I do things. If it makes sense to you, fine. If it doesn't make sense to you, fine.

But when I have a new adult who is going on their first trip with our scouts, I take them aside and I explain what they can and cannot do and I ask them to follow my lead. Absolutely now, the Scoutmaster obviously advises scouts and he works with them with an open hand. He's their mentor and advisor and counselor. But when it comes to adults, the Scoutmaster leads adults. They do what the Scoutmaster says. When the Scoutmaster says it.

If adults don't like this, they can stay at home. This analogy might help you. The scouts are the players, the Scoutmaster is the head coach, they're registered in trained adults. Our assistant coaches and parents are spectators and they're going to be spectators and you have trained them to play the game properly. As for travel arrangements and things like that, if we accept the principles that I've discussed thus far, it should be understood that everybody travels together. It's not an option and just from a practical standpoint, we're going to have a lot of people arriving at different times who disappear, leaving the work to all those who stay behind.

So, once again, scout camping trips are for scouts and they go camping together in patrols. Our trips aren't for adults to go on some wonderful recreational activity, it's not for families to have some recreational weekend and they're not open to just anybody who wants to tag along. We're going camping with some very specific goals in mind and everything else is kind of a fringe benefit. Patrols- going camping is the real heart of what we do.

Well, that was a pile of email, questions and answers. If you have a question for me, you can get in touch and you're going to find out how to do that in just a moment.