Scoutmaster Podcast 192

And now it's the old Scoutmaster. I'd like to begin every podcast with something a little light-hearted, but this week I'm taking a little bit of a different direction. A number of you got in touch with me this week and asked what I had to say about a national news story that reported on a trio of scout leaders who toppled a balanced rock called a hoodoo at Utah's Goblin Valley State Park.

Now they came to national attention because they recorded their actions at the park on a video and they posted that video to YouTube. The authorities saw it and they are investigating the incident for possible felony vandalism charges against these scouters.

Now, personally, I find the actions of these scouters distressing, but I'm going to leave it to others to pass judgment on them. They asserted that they were concerned that the rock was unstable and it could have injured somebody. Both the local authorities and the BSA are looking into the matter and they'll pass judgment.

I'm taking the time to mention this because I think that there's a bit of an allegory here that we may find useful in thinking about our role as scouters. So some of us scouting can be a little bit of an alien landscape.

Now, I've never been to Utah and I've never visited Goblin Valley State Park but I've looked at some pictures of it and for somebody who grew up where I did, in the forests of the Mid-Atlantic, that's kind of an alien landscape and there's some hoodoos in scouting that look kind of unstable and unlikely as that balanced rock. Engaging youth in positions of real responsibility and the intricacies of the patrol system are good examples. Some aspects of scouting form a landscape that looks as alien to us as that fascinating landscape of the Goblin State Park, and we might even be able to talk ourselves into toppling some of those carefully balanced aspects of the program because they don't seem to make sense.

We want to rationalize the landscape and make it safer and more familiar to our expectations. So when this temptation arises we ought to do what those scouting probably should have done. We ought to step back and think before we make any changes. We ought to strive to appreciate the forces at work that formed this landscape of scouting rather than trying to modify it to suit our own tastes and our own concerns. And lastly, I'll add, our scouts are going to disappoint us every once in a while and sometimes things are going to go wrong and sometimes it takes a little bit of effort to dig down and to find something positive in it, And that's why I wanted to discuss this quickly before we begin the podcast today.

I think that one way of looking at this we might be able to find a positive message in an otherwise pretty tragic and difficult event. You can let me know what you think about the matter and you'll find out how to do that later on in the podcast. In the meantime, this is podcast number 192..

Well, welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green. Let's take a look in the mailbag. This week. Todd Archer wrote in to say thanks for the October Scout Circle presentation on backpacking. In three weeks We'll be taking our troop, which includes six new tenderfoot scouts, on their first backpacking trip.

It said that the Lord works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform, and his timing and yours was impeccable. Thanks again. I plan on being around for next month's broadcast, as you never can have too many resources.

Well, thanks, Todd. I'm glad that we were well timed. I can't necessarily claim divine inspiration in that. Hey, I'll take what I can get right. Bill Daniel wrote in about the Scout Circle and he said thanks to Joe Dacaruso, Arlam Ward and yourself. The October Scout Circle was great fun.

It reminded me of my dad's ham radio days of yours. Scouters love to talk about scouting, don't they? Yes, they do, Bill, And I'm glad you enjoyed our October Scout Circle. Our November Scout Circle happens on Sunday, November 10th. It's a live presentation that begins at 9 pm, Eastern Daylight Time, and lasts for about an hour, And what we try to do is have a guest to discuss some aspect of scouting and answer your questions about their area of expertise. And coming up in our November Scout Circle we're going to be talking about the transition from weeblows to scouts.

So once again, Sunday November 10th at scoutscircleorg. You can watch the broadcast there and you'll be able to ask questions and things like that.

We have a great time doing it, So join us, won't you? I had this update from podcast 189.. One of the email questions that I addressed on that podcast was about patrol choices. The question that I got in part said this: although I had my ideas of what a good configuration of patrols would look like, I kept my mouth shut, confident that, in my role as Scoutmaster, I would sit back and observe. I watched our new senior patrol leader do what many adults might do: They balanced the numbers and ranks and ages and separated the boys who hadn't gotten along in the past when they made up their new patrols. In the end I saw a mishmash of ages and ranks and some disappointed faces where friendships have been split up.

Hasn't it to intervene any further? I just nodded my head and I kept my mouth shut. If I step in and call time out on these new patrol assignments, I would undermine and embarrass the new senior patrol leader. But if I don't step in, it looks like there may be some unhappy scouts this year. I'm looking for advice on what to do next And my reply was, first of all, congratulations on keeping your mouth shut. That's, that's not easy for all of us to do.

And let things play out a little bit. See if the patrol leaders council and the senior patrol leader thinks that they might have to tweak some of their new patrol assignments If their choices cause them some difficulties down the line. Let's see if they can figure it out. Keep an eye on the situation, Be ready to ask some questions and offer some advice, but give them the opportunity to see if they can understand why their choices may have caused a couple of problems. And the scouter who inquired about this followed my advice and I heard from him this week and he had this to say: as it turns out, I didn't need to do very much, as nature, a boar is a vacuum and a three legged horse.

So scout troops aboard misconfigured patrols. The scouts themselves worked it out after that initial meeting where they rearranged the patrols. There must have been a flurry of side conversations, texts or emails among the scouts by our patrol leaders council meeting.

The following weekend, The new senior patrol leader handed out a revised list of patrols that made all the corrections I would have advised him on, and then some. It really does work. Let the scouts tackle issues like this themselves and they really can rise to the occasion. I'm really happy to hear that everything worked out as we had hoped. This is not always the case and sometimes a little coaching or advising may be necessary, but in this case, stepping back, observing and, as the writer said, keeping your mouth shut actually reaped some really big benefits.

So I'm glad to hear that things panned out the way that they did. Well, for the past couple of podcasts I've been mentioning my new book, The Scouting Journey.

The almost kind of final draft is being proofread and looked at and picked over right now, So hopefully we'll be able to stay with our publishing schedule that puts the new book in your hands by mid-November. I'll give you an update again next week, but but things are moving right along and I think we're going to be on schedule with it.

In this podcast, in Scoutmaster ship, in seven minutes or less, We're going to talk about how we judge the requirement demonstrate scout spirit by living the scout oath and the scout law in your everyday life, and then we've got some email questions to answer. That's going to take up the remainder of the podcast.

So let's get started.

Shall we Scoutmaster ship in seven minutes or less? Well, there are some perennial questions in scouting and I received an email this past week that raised one of them yet again and it went this way: How do we judge the requirement demonstrate scout spirit? Tender fit through first class ranks require a scout explains how he practices for specific points of the scout law, but star life and Eagle ranks repeat the requirement, without any specification, of providing specific examples.

On the surface, This is a self evaluation, but isn't scout spirit best judged by how others see you? We've had a couple of scouts who are disruptive during troop meetings, who disappear on campouts when work needs to be done and they kind of just generally disregard the troop rules and traditions that we have. When there's an infraction of these rules and adult leader does sit them down and tell them that this kind of behavior is not acceptable, It's not scout spirit. But this doesn't seem to do very much good. We don't have to wait long before there's a new issue to talk about. If I asked these scouts to self evaluate, if I asked them if they demonstrated scout spirit in their everyday lives, they would probably reply with a straight face that yes, they do, that they help put away dishes at home, that they do their homework, that they hold the door open for somebody.

But how can a scout who behaves in this manner at a troop meeting or a camp out be displaying scout spirit in his everyday life? I mean, they can't make it through an activity without causing trouble.

Our troop committee instituted a policy that scout spirit can now only be signed off if the Scoutmaster or the senior patrol leader and another adult leader agree. Needless to say, this has greatly complicated the process, but it's also put some real teeth into the requirement. My question is: have we carried the requirement beyond its original intention.

And if we have, how can I sign off on scout spirit based on a scout's self evaluation, When his fellow scouts or other adult leaders, or even I, may beg to differ with them? If the first aim of scouting is to produce young men of character, this seems to be the most important requirement of all.

Yet there's precious little guidance on who has the final say on it and how to evaluate it, So any suggestions you have would be appreciated. Well, there's a lot to unpack here, So bear with me. Let's be clear first that there are really two types of requirements that we evaluate in scouting. There are objective requirements and subjective requirements. Objective standards for requirements are basically just metrics.

You know, you go on a certain number of camping trips, you swim a certain distance, or something like that. Subjective standards are, like the one you mentioned about scout spirit, ones that are based on individual evaluations. One way to think about this that might be helpful is to imagine achieving scout spirit or any other of these subjective requirements was a literal foot race. The finish line is an ideal standard of behavior.

Now, our scouts don't all start the race at the starting line. They started different places along the track because they have different home lives and characters and habits and personalities that place them ahead of or behind their fellow scouts. Some begin the race at the starting line.

You know they're the average guy with no outstanding advantages or deficits. Some begin 50 yards ahead of the starting line because they have greater advantages and skills in a given area. Some are going to begin 50 yards behind the starting line because they have real problems and deficits.

So when the starter's pistol sounds and the scouts are off and running, the scout who started ahead of their fellows is going to finish the race very quickly because they only had to cover a short distance to that ideal finish line. Amongst the kind of average scouts who begin at the starting line, maybe one covers about 75% of the race, another maybe 25%, and the scout who began the race 50 yards behind the starting line only gets up to the starting line before the race is over.

Here's the question: How much ground did each scout cover? The scout that began 50 yards behind the starting line and finished the race by reaching the starting line may have covered more ground than his more talented, advantaged fellow scout that reached the finish line. See that scout that had to start way back, may have progressed more. And that's what we're looking for. We're looking for progress. When we're looking at these subjective standards, we're not necessarily recognizing that a scout has achieved the ideal at the finish line, but that they have progressed towards it.

This aspect of scouting is really difficult for a lot of us, because it seems very right in theory to require that everyone reaches the same finish line. But that's not what we were after.

We want all of our scouts to progress. That's why subjective standards don't have a set objective standard. They're based on individual progress. Not everyone thinks I have this right.

They think that we should set rigorous standards and only reward those scouts who reach this ideal. Now I'd agree with them if all of our boys started at the same point. But they don't. This is why much of what boys achieve in scouting is based on individual progress rather than a set ideal standard. One of the greatest and most satisfying things that you can do as a scouter is look for that progress and speak words of honest encouragement.

When you see it Now, some of our scouts move slowly, unhaultingly. They take two steps back for every three steps they take forward. But at least they're showing us some progress. Your recognition of that effort builds their resolve. Your friendship and counseling help them build self-confidence, and that always leads towards progressively better behavior. It may not lead to perfect behavior, though, and you may never break through, but you will have done all that you can do and made the boys' life better for it.

Nine out of ten scouts are going to meet the scout spirit requirement on self-evaluation without a whole lot of argument. It's that one out of ten. That's going to take a lot more effort on our part At a Scoutmaster conference. We work with them to set goals for better behavior. We talk to them, We don't talk past them. We ask them questions.

We ask them if they think that their level of behavior meets that level of scout spirit that they would require of another scout. If they say yes and you disagree with them, well tell them. But don't stop there.

Cooperate with them and choose one specific thing- Now nothing too broad, but a very specific kind of chore or task, for instance, that they may have shirked in the past. Find something that presents them with an opportunity for immediate action right there at that meeting, right there on that camp out. When they've completed that simple goal, then you tell them what a wonderful job they did and engage them in setting the next goal for themselves. Build on good behavior a little at a time, with the idea that you're working to build their own internal individual standard of behavior. Engage their youth leaders in supporting these goals. Share what you've discussed with the scout and encourage them to recognize these small progressive steps.

Now, if you get this right- and it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of patience- you'll start to see individual scouts behavior improve. It may be three steps forward and two steps back, but you're making progress, and progress is the name of the game.

Now, if you think that you can create some objective standard or institute a method or policy through the troop committee that handles this question, I'm going to tell you honestly and in the spirit of friendship that I think you're entirely misdirected and mistaken. Let's be honest here. You and your fellow scouts are likely to be frustrated and even a little angry with these scouts.

You know that's to be expected, because it's a perfectly normal human reaction. What I think you may be doing is channeling this frustration into creating a really untenable policy and trying to quote, put teeth, unquote into requirements. Recognize this for what it is, count to 10 and engage these scouts, using the methods I've described, to work towards better behavior, rather than dinging all of the scouts with this kind of encumbering policy that you've created. I'll say again, the name of the game is not perfection. The name of the game is progress, and when we understand that, as scouters, we open doors to fantastic opportunities to help our scouts grow and achieve the main aim of scouting.

Go and campy. Go and campy. Find me a letter, send it by name Email. That is folks.

And here's an answer to one of your emails. Hey, Jay Maniskalko is with Bellbuckle, Tennessee, and he wrote in to say I thought I heard on a past podcast that totenship was not required, but I can't seem to find any information or confirmation of that.

Can you give me a little insight, along with what the policy is for sheath knives? Well, Jay, if you read the rank requirements, you're not going to find any reference to totenship as being a requirement In second class. Requirement three it says: demonstrate proper care, sharpening and use of the knife, saw and axe and describe how they should be used. Use those tools to prepare tinder, kindling and fuel for a cooking fire.

Now, totenship can certainly help with that. But, as you can see, absolutely earning the totenship card is not required for rank advancement.

It is required for wood carving merit badge, but if it was absolutely required for rank advancement it would say so: Is totenship a good way to complete that requirement? Well, of course it is.

It's a great idea, I think. What happens, though, sometimes is that scouts get a little overheated with the whole totenship thing. They demand that scouts are actually carrying the card and they clip corners off the card for infractions of the rules and they kind of turn themselves into pocket knife police. In my work I work with tools all the time and I have the scars to show that I've learned to respect them. If a scout waves a knife around and does something stupid, I mean I'm going to call them on it, but in the spirit of an older brother, not in the spirit of the knife police.

So it's not that I disagree with the totenship card. I just have an issue sometimes with the spirit in which it's used. As for sheath knives, we turn to the guide to safe scouting and we find this: A sharp pocket knife with a can opener on it is an invaluable back country tool. Keep it clean, sharp and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They're heavy, they're awkward to carry and unnecessary for most camp chores, except for cleaning a fish.

That's what the guide to safe scouting says about knives. It's pretty simple, isn't it?

So large sheath knives should be avoided. They aren't absolutely outlawed in the guide to safe scouting. Some council properties and some troops simplify this advice by prohibiting sheath knives altogether, but I note that every patrol cook kit usually has a whopping big kitchen knife in it. Right, I mean, I have lots of sheath knives and I use them from time to time, but my pocket knife is more useful. And I'll add that common sense leads us to conclude that sheath knives that were designed principally for weapons or as hunting knives they're not going to be a whole lot of use to scouts. I don't have a problem with them, I just don't think they're all that useful.

So, to kind of wrap it all together, we want our scouts to be able to use knives. They're an invaluable back country tool.

We want them to do it safely, but we don't want to turn ourselves into the knife police. Right, Theoretically, can a scout carry a sheath knife?

But we want to avoid sheath knives. I think part of it's a safety matter, but part of it's also that they're really just not that useful. Jay, I hope that helps you sort this out. I also heard from Sean Keeney, and Sean is an assistant cub master with PAC 70 in Foxborough, Massachusetts. He wrote in to say this: We are going on a PAC overnight in November. An older brother of one of our cubs who just joined Boy Scouts will be coming along.

I'd like him to have an active part of the trip and be kind of like our den chief for the weekend. My question is this: will his participation in the overnight and activities on our camp out count towards his advancement towards Tenderfoot? Thanks for the podcast. I stumbled across it a few months ago and I look forward to it each week.

Sean, thanks so much for listening. I'm glad you're enjoying the podcast. Thank you for being such a generous assistant cub master and working to include this scout. Make his experience a good one when he goes camping with the PAC.

The first thing that we can do to answer your question is carefully read Tenderfoot requirement number two, And it says this: Spend at least one night on a patrol or troop camp out. Sleep in a tent. You have helped pitch. If we read that requirement carefully, we see the words troop and patrol. That's specified. It's not a PAC or a den camp out.

So nights camping with the PAC or den do not count towards this requirement unless the whole patrol is there or unless the whole troop is there. If we look at Tenderfoot requirement number three, it says this: on the camp out, assist in preparing and cooking one of your patrol's meals. Tell why it is important for each patrol member to share and meal preparation and clean up and explain the importance of eating together. Your patrol in that requirement is not a den or a PAC or a troop for that matter. It's your patrol. What you see in these requirements is intended to get a scout into the life of his patrol.

That's where all of scouting happens. It's not simply going camping or cooking a meal without any context. It's doing these things with your patrol. As for the other Tenderfoot requirements, an older scout could certainly learn and practice them on a Cub Scout camping trip If he has the time.

But who's supposed to be signing them off? This is really the Scoutmasters prerogative.

If they give you permission to sign them off, well, that's fine. But most Scoutmasters will want patrol leaders signing requirements rather than adults.

Once again, I think you're being very generous and very helpful and you're very right in theory to offer as much opportunity as you can for this scout. But scouting is something more than just checking things off a list to look at the requirements carefully. It's a lot about who we do things with and how they are done.

That contextualizes the experience we want Scouts to have in fulfilling those requirements. David wrote in with this question. He said in my first year as Scoutmaster I've been able to keep adults out of the planning process and let the Scouts make decisions. At a recent meeting it was pointed out by a parent that a Veterans Day parade we normally participate in wasn't on their schedule.

Can I tell Scouts that they're in charge without adult interference and then turn around and tell them they have to schedule this parade because it's a traditional service that the troop does in the community? I think I would prefer that they originate their own service ideas. In all my efforts to give the Scouts free reign and how they do things, I am also running against a kind of counterproductive message on a part of some parents that they have to become Eagle Scouts. I'd appreciate any advice you could give me on either of those matters.

Hey, David, you know, this kind of conundrum comes up from time to time in any troop. I don't think you have to direct here.

I think all you have to do is sit down with the patrol leader's council and explain the situation, just like you did to me in this email. You can sit down and say: listen, I'm really invested in your decision making, in the way that you put your calendar together, but it was brought to my attention that we didn't include the Veterans Day parade in your plans and I was wondering what you thought about that.

Now, I'd imagine they probably like to do the parade anyway. Maybe it was just an oversight on their part. Maybe they really don't want to go and do the parade. You can take this opportunity to have a conversation about all the issues that this involves, and it will probably be a great conversation too.

As far as parents who have in their mind that their boy must become an Eagle Scout, well, parents often don't get what we're trying to do. Remember that most of us didn't get it at first either, and given enough time, most of them will get on board, but some continue to pull in the other direction. If a Scout is on the fast track to Eagle because his parents are driving him. I lend him all the support and encouragement I can. He has no control over what his parents do, and really neither do I.

We can try talking and counseling and doing what we can, but remember we're not the boy's parent. We don't set the goals for him.

We can advise and coach and mentor and see if we can help set the situation straight, but in no way do we want to penalize a Scout because his parents happen to be a little pushy or something like that. David, I hope that helps. I would love to have you again in touch with me and ask your questions about scouting, and I'll tell you how to do that in just a minute.