Scoutmaster Podcast 173

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I'm okay, You know, card carrying number, scout nerd. We did that, We got. We're a scout nerd.

Can they add scout nerd? Wait a minute, You have a card. Hey, this is podcast number 173..

Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clarke Green. Let's take a look in the mailbag here. Kim Jones is in California with Troop 723.

She wrote in to say thank you so much for keeping us all up to date on membership change issues. I hope and pray everyone will keep their hearts open and do what's best for our youth.

I hope we can let all youth participate in the best program in the world. Again, Thanks for all you do. Well. Thank you, Kim. Kim, that sentiment was echoed by any number of people who've contacted me over the past few weeks. I sure do appreciate it and I join you in your aspiration.

Let's keep our hearts and our minds open and do what's best for our youth. Malcolm Dickinson is a Roundtable Commissioner in Stamford, Connecticut, and he wrote in to say my compliments on your thorough and thoughtful blog and website. I really enjoy it and appreciate all you offer to Scouters. Malcolm went on to help me out and joined the Red Pencil Patrol.

Now, if you're not aware of what the Red Pencil Patrol is, I have a very sharp-eyed, astute group of proof readers out there who notice problems in punctuation and spelling and things that I've gotten wrong, and they're good enough to let me know about it so I can correct it. I really do appreciate it. Proofing my own work has never been my strong suit. Malcolm went on to say: I've tried several times to make a donation using the PayPal button on your support page but it didn't work.

Well, Malcolm, I fixed that. If you go to support the blog at scoutmastercgcom, you'll see how you can help support the blog in a financial way. I really do appreciate that. Folks, in a moment we're going to hear a discussion about the immediate aftermath of the membership policy change and it will likely be the last extensive discussion we're going to have of it here on the podcast for a good long. While.

You know we're all in the business of delivering scouting to our scouts and we have a lot of work to do. That isn't even remotely related to any of the issues that have come out of this, but what I wanted to do here is discuss the way that this policy change happened and some of the possible repercussions, and offer some advice to fellow scouts who are dealing with issues surrounding those repercussions. Depending on a number of factors, you may have already moved on. If you favored the change, it's likely that it has little to no effect on what you're doing day to day in your work in scouting. If you oppose the change, however, you may find yourself in a very confusing or an off-putting set of circumstances and you aren't quite sure what to do or how to resolve them, or you may have decided at this point you can't continue offering your time as a volunteer.

I am here to do my level best to help my fellow scouts, Full stop, that's it, And I do understand that this whole thing is causing a lot of difficulty for some of us, So this is an open invitation: please, If this change to membership policy has caused difficulty for you, get in touch with me and I will do what I can do to help you out, and you can email me at clark at scoutmastercgcom. So the rest of the podcast is going to be a discussion I had with someone who will be familiar to long-time listeners of the podcast, Frank Maynard. Frank is the author of Bob White Blather, a blog chiefly concerned with Frank's role in scouting as a troop committee chair. And we also had our old friend Walter Underwood, who grew up in scouting and served in scouting for many years as a scoutmaster.

So I hope you'll find it all helpful and let's get started, shall we? So we're going to have a little scouter discussion on this edition of the Scoutmaster podcast, And joining me is our friend Walter Underwood, out in Palo Alto, California.

How are you doing, Walter? I'm doing fine.

Yeah, Are the trees still as tall as they were the last time we spoke? Well, they are. We actually have a couple of new trees.

In the backyard We have a western azalea, which is a native wild azalea. It's a spray plant And I'm sure the weather is disgustingly mild and wonderful. I don't have to bring that up if you don't. And also with me is Frank Maynard, and Frank is in Novi Michigan.

How are you doing Frank? Hello Clark, Good evening, And our trees are just the right height here.

Yes, I think that we're all very happy about the Michigan trees. We had a season of flowering trees last year. They all got bitten by the late frost and ended up with no apples and no cherries, And this year we've had some just wonderful blossoms, And I'm hoping that the fruit comes back on the summer sometime.

Walter, do we need to explain frost to you? And I'm bored with that steady weather that you have. You can get just about anything here.

We had frost last week, It's 82 degrees today, And so it goes all over the map, especially in the spring. That's right. Folks Tune in to the Scoutmaster Podcast to hear old guys talk about the weather. That's the best thing about it, I'll tell you.

I asked you to join me today so that we could discuss three things Concerning the recent change in membership policy that was announced by the BSA this past week. That has been much in the news, And I thought we'd start the discussion by just commenting about the process that happened Before we got started here. Walter, you were saying that it was a pretty unprecedented process for the BSA.

Well then, it started this voice of the Scout process early on, about a year or so ago, But this was definitely. I got the impression that everything else- this became kind of number one, two and three priorities at National And other stuff just didn't get done until it was finished And probably for the rest of the year I think that's going to be the case.

What was your impression as you followed this, Frank? What was happening in Novi and happening in Michigan?

Well, at least personally, I was interested to see the initial discussion that sort of came to everybody's awareness back in February during the executive board meeting: Oh, they might change the policy and here's what they might change it to. And then they voted and they decided to table it for three months and I thought, well, it's probably for the best, because this is an awfully big change for this organization- to take on a simple vote of the executive committee.

It really needed input from a lot of people and I think they did a thorough job of doing that. There wasn't a lot of talk about it in February when it initially started. There have been discussions and meetings at the council level here where people could come and listen to. Basically, it wasn't a debate or it wasn't a public forum, It was just a fact presentation.

Here's what we're going to do and here's what we're going to propose, and or at least this is how we're going to go about finding out what to propose. We had similar meetings in our council. There was a series of four meetings in different areas of the council.

The public part of the meeting was more informative and then they did have a way for people to offer their opinion in writing about the whole thing. Was that happening out in your end of the country, Walter?

We did have the Fireside meeting and certainly got coverage in the local paper. We had a reporter to that meeting and the reporter actually contacted people around trying to find someone who opposed the policy change and actually couldn't find anyone. I'll probably tell you where we are at the whole spectrum. We definitely did get in touch with people as much as possible. They were certainly noticed. The survey went out.

I think probably the one group that might not have gotten really polled are those sort of 18 to 20 whatever-year-olds who are just less scouting than the youth and are off in college. I know I tried to get my son to answer the survey but he was all busy doing stuff In Walter's area in California. There the opinion was majority for the proposed change.

What was it like in Michigan? Well, in Michigan it was about mixed.

I think they leaned towards not changing it. According to the report anyway, the councils in our area were more or less split, but I think that the analysis was that they leaned against the change In our immediate area. Here the balance was slightly in favor, although I'm taking a guess based on the people that I know In our council, which is southeastern Pennsylvania.

After analyzing the comments that people made, we were basically right around a 50-50 split. We were as close to being 50-50 as you could be. There's been a fair amount of discussion on both sides of the question. Our area was actually very nearly unanimous in favor of the change. It's been a significant obstacle to recruiting in our area. It's something I talk with basically every family that joins the group about.

Just in discussions with district executives in our council and elsewhere in our region, we saw a measurable effect on recruiting, especially at the Cub Scout level, Because people told us the reason that they were not interested in the BSA was because of the existence of this policy. Were you aware of anything like that in Michigan, Frank? Not that I'm personally aware of It really isn't much of an issue here and at least in the contacts that I've had, not at the unit level at any rate. I don't think people are deterred by from joining scouting because of the policy.

I think the larger impact is when, of course, the Supreme Court decision came out back in I think it was 2000,, and that kind of publicized the fact that there was a policy. We had several instances where chartered organizations decided not to recharter coincident with that, not necessarily giving that as the reason, but we kind of suspected.

We should mention here that we've got three reasonably different parts of the country represented. We don't have anybody from the southern region of the BSA joining us today. That's not because we consciously excluded anyone. We just couldn't get anybody to be available for this discussion. But let me do my best to represent what I know of that just through news reports and having read the materials released by the BSA- The central and southern regions of the BSA. The general opinion was strongly opposed to changing the policy.

I wouldn't go so far as to try and state the reasons behind that. I think they're reasonably self-evident: Michigan's central region, Of course, California western region and I'm in northeast region.

So hey, we got at least three regions represented. That's not to say that we have any particular authority or inside scoop or knowledge. We're basically just scouters like everybody else. I know that. I've spent a great deal of time trying to understand what's going on and reading all the materials that have been released, And I'm following the news after the decision. This discussion is more or less just a casual discussion about what's going on in every unit across the country.

Some notice is being taken of this decision. In some places it's going to be much more difficult. Perhaps we're finding it. Well. There's been a lot of people talk about it. It's all about money or it's about this.

I don't think that was that at all. If it was about money, this would have happened a long time ago. National has really been listening.

I think that they were surprised at the impassioned response to the news from the executive council And I think they responded really well and saying: okay, we're all going to talk, We're going to work our way through this. I think it may be affected by the region of the country that you live in, But one of the perceptions that I've found kind of objectionable to me is this: policy change is simply the result of a lot of outside pressure, The advancement of some kind of agenda or something like that.

What do you guys think about that? In general, I don't think that the community had that much of a case one way or the other. It just wasn't something that was a big deal around here.

Anyways, Walter, do you perceive this as the argument that I've read about again and again in some news reports and opinion pieces is that the BSA caved into a lot of outside pressure? Well, I think they were talking about that pressure, but I don't think they caved in.

I think it was really people on the board. Their companies went to non-discriminatory policies two or three years ago.

They say I can't say this at work and then say something else on this board. My guess is it was a personal stance from people on the executive committee, But that's a total guess. Obviously, when the ball got rolling, activists in the groups outside of the BSA did share their opinion, but that was true of both sides of the question. Last week, the BSA annual meeting convened.

How do you feel about the process that went on? I think they did a good job of ensuring the security of the vote, at least from reading the voting procedures.

They wanted to make sure that each member of the board, each member who was entitled to vote, got a chance to vote and got a chance to do so in confidence and make sure that their vote counted. They had an outside organization do all the tabulating and it was done in a very somber manner. From what I can tell from having read about the proceeding, I am not 100% clear on just who the delegates were and how many came from where and how one would get to become a delegate if it was professionals, volunteers or how it was made up. Maybe you can clarify that Each council was allotted a number of voting members. It was done by the number of members in the council. We're a relatively small council.

We sent three voting members to the national meeting and they were all members of our executive board. How the executive board decides on who those people are, I really haven't any idea, But I know our council president and our council commissioner were two of those voting members. I'm not too sure who the third one is. It was a representative system.

I believe all 1400, whatever voters, were volunteers or whatever. The voting members are all volunteer members. I don't believe that professionals get to vote in any situation in Scouts from your council all the way on up.

I want to say that I think they did a really good job of communicating what was going on in the annual meeting. I have never heard much information about an annual meeting and I would like to hear more.

I think five years ago I probably didn't know there was an annual meeting When we changed the uniform. Did anybody hear anything about the annual meeting?

There's a lot of information out there, but I think you have to know where to look. The resources that I use is Scoutwire, which is really sort of a blog or a news feed for professionals. A lot of stuff gets distributed there, A lot of changes or actions or proposals or new things that are available, revisions to publications and such that you wouldn't necessarily get otherwise unless you paid attention to that feed. I really admire the transparency of the process, The fact that it was available to every single volunteer, not only in the meetings that were held locally, but also in the surveys that went around. There was a very open invitation to send your opinion into the BSA. I don't think I would have wanted to be the person on the other end of that email address.

I bet the pipes in Irving Texas, were clogged with bits for months. If you'll look on the blog- and I'll make sure I link the podcast to it- you'll find the information for voting members packet that was distributed at the national meeting.

How many pages is it, Frank? It's 58 pages. What it represents is all of the information gathered during the listening phase. It's pretty thorough. I really appreciated that kind of transparency and the ability to know those types of things. I'm glad that we weren't waiting in Vatican Square for the smoke to come out of the Sistine Chapel or anything.

Absolutely. It was not secret. Putting together a document that size is a lot of work. At National, Somebody was busy for a couple of weeks putting that together.

Well, if anybody down there is listening, thank you Absolutely. That was a big job and a thankless job. I'm sure that not a whole lot of people checked in to tell you what a wonderful job you were doing. After seeing the product of it- not the nature of the discussion, not the nature of the decision, but just the product of the information sharing- I personally am really, really appreciative of that. There have been literally hundreds of articles in news outlets and blogs and opinion pieces and on television since the decision was made.

I think the tendency is to go towards the more sensational stories. In one way, if I was just reading all of those articles, I would think that there were a large number of organizations that are dropping the BSA like a hot potato.

Are you guys aware of any conflicts in your area as far as chartered organizations go? I'm not aware of anything here that would result in a chartered organization dropping because of the membership policy.

I think that remains to be seen, because it's going to take some time for some of the other organizations to digest what this means. Some churches may be more orthodox, so to speak, than others when it comes to the issue and may feel that they no longer can support the organization.

I think what we need to be prepared for at the level is to have that happen and to try to figure this out well before charter renewal time. Certainly, our council organization, whether it be done by the professionals or the commissioners or whomever, is going to have to try to get a handle on this early so that there are any changes that need to be made in chartered organizations, that new ones can be identified in plenty of time to ensure continuity for the units that are affected.

Walter, how about where you are? You know of any conflicts or happenings with charter organizations.

So far as this is concerned, I don't know of any. We have one charter organization that they think it didn't go far enough because they were on the verge of dropping their troops In our area. It kept the Boy Scout stock discriminating. And the San Francisco Chronicle- that's going to be a pretty liberal voice. Their editorial was good job- more work to do, but it was a very positive response to the decision. I'm thinking that it's probably going to be a good thing for our area.

I haven't been made aware of any specific charter organization on our council who's made a decision based on the policy change so far. I won't be surprised to hear that there may be some in our council. I have seen a couple of news stories about mostly evangelical churches or those associated with the Southern Baptist Convention who've already made a decision that they won't be continuing to sponsor scout troops. There's actually a wonderful letter by someone from the Southern Baptist about and it is that it's a matter of accepting the boys. Membership policy may not be a real blocker for these organizations. The Latter-day Saints have very publicly stated that they were supportive of the policy change.

It was drafted in a way that they could support it. There have been a number of calls to continue to change membership standards so that we include adults as well as youth. There have been actually some pretty heated opinion pieces and editorials that the Boy Scouts of America did not go far enough.

You're going to find a lot of people who do think that we didn't go far enough and then there are others who are saying: well, look what they did and what's next? They're going to let adults in and they're going to let agnostics in and they're going to let just about anybody in.

We're going to have Martians in the Boy Scouts before you know it. Well, Walter will be happy to hear that because he is a Martian, Absolutely. I have been called up at work And I'm already in.

It's a huge issue and there's no way to handle this quietly Big change. It's moving rapidly, faster than any of us would have expected.

It's a great decision with a couple of decades to go about this and we have to decide. It's not about Gates, it's about the boys.

The question for any of us now, no matter what kind of conflict we're in the midst of or difference of opinion, is: uninterrupted service to our Scouts. This is not something that they have any control over.

Whatever we can do to smooth the way and make it possible for all boys to continue on in scouting, that's going to be time well spent, Definitely. When the decision was reached, I sent an email out to our troop basically saying the way we deliver the program to the boys does not change Really. The impact at the boy is really almost insignificant.

Yeah well, one of the things that was shared with the voting members was the result of the youth survey, And the youth survey nationally was somewhere around I think, two to one, that this is really not an issue for our youth membership. Frank, you've lit a little more close reading of that than I did.

The ages that they surveyed started at 14 or 16? They started surveying at 16.. In fact, there was a lot of opposition to the BSA directly surveying youth members.

They did identify a group of youth that were willing to be interviewed or surveyed for the purposes of it, But they also used- I think it was the Harris organization- a representative sample of youth in that age group, starting from 16 on up. They did make the distinction between the youth who were members and the youth who were not members as to their feelings on the issue.

I think overall I don't know that there was much difference between scouts and non-scouts And I think, as you said, about two-thirds didn't feel it was an issue or were supportive of changing the policy. Relatively few said we should not change the policy. My kind of closing question: fellas, there are going to be some interpersonal conflicts over this. There are going to be people who disagree within units, within councils and districts. It's very likely that some people are going to discontinue their volunteer relationship with the BSA. What's your advice to any scouts who are out there who are on the horns of a dilemma where they've got, maybe in their unit or district or council.

They have some pretty hot arguments going on. Be respectful and be polite and be understanding. That's the best thing you can do. If somebody undertakes to leave your unit, you thank them for their service and you try to find a replacement. There's really not much that you can do about the policy having been changed. If you're a unit scouter, if you're a committee chair or a Scoutmaster, Basically, be aware of the facts and share the facts.

Know what your council is doing about it. Know how your chartered organization feels about it and whether or not they have any inkling towards discontinuing the charter relationship.

But when it comes down to the personal level, I think respect is the best route along those lines and if somebody decides that they want to sever ties with your unit over the issue, thank them for their service and wish them well, but do have the capability or at least think about replacing them if they're in a key position. Well, I've been doing this from the other direction for a while, where we have people who are not comfortable with the Scouts position. I tell them that this is how I understand the Scouts policy, the USA policy, but I'm not telling you how to raise your children. We are giving them great experiences in the outdoors. We are encouraging the deeper understanding of ethical choices. We support your family and your choices.

That's what we do, That's what the Scouts do. It's character, citizenship and fitness. Respectful listening and respectful talk is going to be the order of the day, as it always has been.

We'll all weather whatever storm we have to weather. I'm sure the BSA will be issuing some direction and some information that deal with any issues rising out of the membership change. Until they have, I've got some resources. You'll find them at ScoutmasterCGcom and it's right there. It's a menu item right at the top of the page now: membership policy resources.

If you're listening and you know of any resources that you think would be helpful for folks, get in touch with me and I'll make sure to include them there. Walter, thanks so much for joining us. I'm glad to talk. And, Frank, thank you, My pleasure. Claire.