Scoutmaster Podcast 151

And now the old Scoutmaster. Alright, so we are ready to go, fellas. Yes, sir, Alrighty, Do it. Hey, hike on. Well, it's time for another Scoutmaster. Is anyone else not ready? Sorry, Sorry, You just had to do that, didn't you? Okay, we'll do that again. Alright, it's time. You've got to ask. Come on, Alright, everybody. now One, two, three begin. Hey, this is podcast number 151.. Hey, Welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green. Hey, it's Christmas Eve, So happy holidays, everybody. I want to thank everybody for being in touch this past week. I'm not going to go through the mail bag this week. We'll save that for another podcast. We do have a Scoutmaster panel discussion that we recorded earlier this month And that's going to take up the rest of the podcast. There's something else coming up in the new year that I wanted to mention to you: Sunday January 13th. That Sunday evening I'm working with a couple of people and we're working on a live web presentation For that evening And I'm going to have more details about that sometimes and exactly how to access it and things. But just to let you know, put a little note on your calendar, Sunday January 13th, And we'll have some more details about that within the next couple of podcasts. Have a wonderful holiday, Won't you? Let's get started, Shall we? It's time for another Scoutmaster panel discussion. It's time for another Scoutmaster panel discussion, And joining me is Larry Geiger, down in VR, Florida. How you doing, Larry? Good evening, Clark. Tom Gillard is in Tallahoma, Tennessee, Hello Tom. Hey Clark, And Walter Underwood is out there in the tall trees. The Palo Alto, California. How you doing, Walter? I'm doing great High-climb. We're moving right along here. I had an email question that I thought would be a good topic for discussion with the panel And let me read the email to you. fellas, I'm a new Scoutmaster of six months and have only two years as a volunteer adult with the Boy Scouts of America and no prior experiences in scouting. I just returned from a committee meeting where members complained that some of the scouts need to be punished for using their electronic devices to play games during yesterday's advancement meeting. One adult suggested I make the scouts do push-ups as a punishment. Others thought a type of reprimand or demerit system should be put in place. I told the members that there was already a rule for scouts not to use electronic devices during the meetings and that the patrol leaders' counsel should have handled the issue. Unfortunately, the senior patrol leader and the other leaders did not do anything to stop the scouts from playing games on their devices And the behavior continued for about half an hour. What would be an appropriate way to deal with this in the future? Can the committee install a type of discipline or demerit system I would have to enforce? Thank you for your help in this relatively simple but now somewhat complex issue. That is a bit of a can of worms there. Who wants to get started? There's three issues that you have to deal with. The first one is electronic devices. You've got to talk about that. And then the second thing is punishment, And I think that's the thing that you want to talk about. But the third thing to talk about is that last line and that's the committee Scoutmaster relationship. And I'll just start with that one just for a second and then let you guys go. But no, can the committee do that? No, The Scoutmaster is in charge of the program. The committee chairman can certainly talk to the Scoutmaster, But if it's not in the scout handbook and it doesn't say here's how the Boy Scout demerit system worked, then no, the committee can't do that if the Scoutmaster and the SPL don't want to do that. The committee chairman says: you know, you sent us a guy for a board and you didn't do a Scoutmaster conference. The Scoutmaster says: eh, you know why do we do that. Then he can say: wait, here's the book. But in this case scouting doesn't have a demerit system. So no, he can't say that. So it's really up to the SPL, with the advisement of the Scoutmaster. And it's a bad idea. But can the committee chairman do that? No, Let's concentrate on that question for a moment. Is it within the purview of the committee chairman to be able to set something like that and tell the Scoutmaster it's time for him to enforce it? Well, that was my first response too. It's like no, the committee cannot set up a demerit system. The committee can talk to the Scoutmaster about the program, But the Scoutmaster says: we are teaching the SPL and the patrol leaders how to lead. And then the Scoutmaster teaches the SPL and patrol leaders: here's what you do. So these guys are not paying attention, They're doing this and this You need to spread out. And the next time Scoutmaster taps somebody on the shoulder, takes them over and says whisper, whisper, whisper, let's you know, go settle this down. so the guys are paying attention. I say no to that also, And there have been times when I have noticed some of the youth, some of the older scouts, doing something over on the side with a phone, And I'll try and get the same patrol leaders' attention and point to it. He may or may not go over and say something And it'll go on for a little bit And I'll sort of walk over there and look over the shoulder and see what's going on. And they're looking up something that pertains to scouting on the phone. That always bothers me too, But you're old. Yeah, In consultation with the patrol leaders' council about dealing with this, because it's a problem for everybody, They knew if somebody was using a cell phone or an electronic device in aid of what was happening or if they were just being distracted by it, and that if they judge that somebody is being distracting and their encouragements or directions to them go unheeded, that that person needs to come to talk to me. Do you guys have any specific way of handling things like that? Well, now we're on to the first question that I listed, which is the devices, And I disagree with you when you say everybody has a problem, because I just ignore it. I know on the internet I've seen conversations on various places and everybody gets their drawers in a knot about this whole thing.

And I've ignored the whole thing because I truly believe that those guys are going to lose. You cannot go backwards. This thing is part of life. They're going to have to learn how to pay attention and get everything done, just like they did with other distractions in the world, And I don't know how that's going to work out in the end. but I just don't think there's any way. I think making a bunch of rules and getting all involved in this is the wrong thing to do. Now the scouts need to enforce amongst themselves how they're going to deal with scouts that have an attention problem and let them work it out. But I think if you stick your nose in it and you get all spun up about it, eventually those guys are just going to vote with their feet. And those families that say: what do you mean? my kid can't have a phone on the camp out. That's crazy. Bye, I'm leaving. That's their family rule. I can't make a battle out of it. Let me tell you this? I don't think we disagree. I agree with everything you've said. What I described is the way that they handle any kind of a discipline or difficulty. If they can't correct it, I'm the next step. Walter, what about you? I'm a digital native, so everybody's got a phone. Our guys, we say, maybe in the car you can chat, but put it down, Let's go camping. Will you go camping where there's no reception anyway? Yeah, that's, what we've got is no reception. Most of their parents told them to take it. They've got it but they can't use it because there is no reception. I don't get in a knot over them doing it, I just sort of make it a. If I see it. I'll just make a little point about respect towards the same trollator and anything constructive right now, But anyway, I don't really get upset about it. That's one of the few things I guess. Well, I'll tell you an interesting story. When we got down to summer camp a year or so ago, we were getting set up, My parents were all over in their area and one of my assistant scoutmasters got a phone call and his phone started ringing there in the campsite. He took it out and he looked at it and he said: wow, I didn't know that I was going to get reception here, and they must have changed the towers or something around camp. He took the call and it was his wife, and he said: yeah, honey, I can get a call right here in the campsite. and then a look of horror spread over his face And he really wanted to take those words back, But for the rest of the week he just turned his phone off. Well, our summer camp is up in the Sierras and it's really it's kind of remote. There was a cell phone bench so you can go up and around off the trail and sit there, and that had better cell phone reception. When we're on long trips traveling, having them in the cars helps keep the noise down to some extent, But I like to use the scouts like if I have something I would really like to tell a car, that's, you know, the driver or another adult, to send the car behind me or in front of me. get the scouts to be the relays, Let them do the communicating between vehicles, and that works. Yeah, we've done that. What I think Clark really wants to talk about, though, is item number two. Yeah, and that's punishment All right. so let's talk about that for a moment. One person on the committee suggested doing push-ups. How about that? Let's just talk about that real quick. As adults we have never, never on anything, had any kind of punishment like that. We've given them stuff to think about. But I tell you, it's the youth that came up with push-ups, especially like clearing camp before we're leaving and making sure everything's picked up. We tell them to sweep the camp and then we'll come and look for trash and see if we can find any after they do and they go. what if you do? And we all stand there and look at them and go. I don't know what if we do push-ups And we go. sure, if you want to, that's fine with us. And we've never left a camp that they didn't have to do some. but it's always on their terms. They do it. We're not making them do that. Walter, what do you think about push-ups? I'm a little iffy on the whole push-ups thing, but hey, our guys do. if you're not in uniform, as defined by the SPL, then push-ups are. if you're not on time, push-ups. And you know, I showed up in civilian clothes to drop off some forms last night and I ran out before. I had some push-ups, But once, once everyone was in uniform and the senior patrol did push-ups. Well now, if the scouts but notice the sentence it says, one adult suggested I, the Scoutmaster, make the scouts do push-ups. That's a different issue than what Walter's talking about. when the scouts get together and do some you know Yippee-ki-yay thing, some moral morale boosting thing, That's different. Let me be very specific about the question. So I'll start with you, Larry. Is it proper for an adult to impose punishment through some kind of forced physical action like push-ups? No, Okay, That's baloney. No, Yeah, And Walter. Walter says no. So I'm kind of iffy about the scouts doing it. I've let it ride. but Well, I did check in the Scoutmaster's Handbook because I remembered something specific about this, And it will tell you very directly: adults are not to impose that type of forced physical punishment on anyone ever. The situations you described, where this is initiated by the scouts, I feel like you do, Walter. I'm a little iffy about that because I can see it. It can head over the edge real quick. There's a game aspect to it If they're initiating it. I'm going to side on the safe side because we're advising people. You would need to think long and hard about that and you need to observe the prohibition against such things that you'll find in scouting literature. You can normally tell if a Scoutmaster's on the ball and he's paying attention. He can tell the difference between a bunch of gung-ho guys and a 15, probably 16 or 17-year-old ROTC kid riding herd on a bunch of 11-year-olds, which is just as bad as the adults doing it. So there's a difference and you can tell it and you can feel it. If it gets to the point where the PLC is up there doing push-ups and then after they're done, they all cheer, you can feel the difference between that and the other thing, which is you guys get down on the floor. There's a line and I think you've got to watch that. Maybe I'll suggest the SPL, the senior patrol, does push-ups unless everyone is in uniform. Yes, Ours is all in fun. It's not the finger-pointing, It's everybody. and, like Walter said, it doesn't matter whether you can get up on the floor. you're trying and it truly is all in fun and we watch for that. It's not standing over and making them do whatever it is. I think I got that sense from you. I'm just in an abundance of caution because people are listening to us and making sure that we drive that point home. What is suggested in the question that we received? we're not going to have that happen. Patrol leaders, council or the boys may be real hard driving gung-ho guys who are really doing it in a spirit of fun and things. as long as it's not a tiresome routine that they use to belittle or haze people, I don't really have a problem with it. but let's just be very, very careful to differentiate between those numbers, Absolutely. There's a couple of hidden questions here. The first one is: you know, we talked about the advisability of the committee trying to install a system of discipline or a demerit system or something like that and we agreed that that was not a good idea. but is it a good idea to have such a demerit system or a system of punishments or disciplines? A demerit system doesn't have a place in scouting. Scouting is moving forward, Demerits are moving backwards. If you think about it for a little while, it's just not compatible with the overall way, In particular some of the quotes you've had in the last couple of things from Bade and Powell, the last couple of posts that you've done about advancement. scouting is moving forward. Scouts go, they advance. Scouts do not retreat. They don't demerit, They merit, And that has to permeate everything you do. If you start something like this, you will end up in a mire, in a pit of mess.

There may be one or two places in the world for that kind of thing, in certain places where you're working with very serious life and death situations, But in the case of education, moving ahead, advancing, that's why advancement is called advancement. I don't think it has any place. That's my opinion. It's calling somebody down in a very negative way too and calling attention to them in a negative way, and you really don't ever want to do that and you always want to be very positive. So you want the positive reinforcement versus the negative. also, Walter, you got anything on that Demerits? No, We're talking about progress Other than it being amenical to the principles that we want to be exercising and scouting. the other thing is, if you create a rule book like that now that makes you a policeman where you're going to have to be, you're going to spend an inordinate amount of time and your youth leaders are going to spend an inordinate amount of time policing a bunch of rules, when the scout law and the scout oath seem to be very adequate to that task. That would be what I would put into it. The second hidden question here is: they're having a meeting and the scouts are doing this. so what's going on at the meeting? that is less interesting than playing on my phone. Well, and you got two issues there. You got the meeting may not be theirs, the regular stuff we talk about, and then you may have those one or two guys for whatever reason, no matter what your meeting is. If Harrison Ford showed up and the circus put on a show, they'd be looking at their phones. There's going to be other indications that they're disconnected. It's not going to just be their phone, it's going to be behavior: not showing up for camp out, it's not bringing. something else is going on and eventually that's along with any other kind of behavior. that's when you have to. they're going to probably have to sit down with a Scoutmaster and say: what's going on here? We need to make a deal.

Are you here because you shouldn't be, but your dad brings you? Do I need to sit down with you and your dad? Do we all need to chat? And it won't be just the phone. it'll be four things. I've had scouts that have already checked out their parents suit them up, bring them down every Tuesday at seven o'clock. and he checked out three months ago and I know it and he knows it Well. thankfully, ours has been very, very short lived. They're talking about some game or some viral YouTube video they saw. They haven't checked out. it's that little. they're 15 minutes up. now they moved on and a little reminder and they focus back for a little while longer. Thankfully, I haven't had that problem yet. If I get to the end of a meeting and I'm listening to the Patrol Leaders Council and I'm hearing several complaints about people being distracted or not paying attention, then my question to them is always: well, what were you doing? that was not that interesting. Why weren't these guys engaged? Sometimes, that's the question to ask. They need to make a little bit of an adjustment in their presentation. How are you going to fix it next week, Right? That's the basic thing. Scouting is awesome. Make it awesome. How do you make it awesome? I do it with a podcast. Sorry, I have not seen Gangum style from you. Yes, they do. I'm not really ready to see Gangum style from you. If I had a clue what you were talking about, Right? I don't have any idea either. Yeah, Google Gangum style and you'll find out. and you won't, or not. you can do either one Gangum. Put a link to this in your podcast. Gangum style? I don't think so. Let me offer you this and see. I want to know if you agree with me. I don't think it is our responsibility to punish scouts. I think that's why they have parents. Parents can do a much better job of it than we can. If I have a behavior problem, I'm going to make parents aware of it and say that we don't discipline and punish, but you certainly may take that option if you feel it's merited in this instance. We went backpacking a couple of weeks ago and I woke up Sunday morning to hear my troop quartermaster pretty loudly. I heard the word matches and I heard the word flicking and I heard the word tent and burned. My quartermaster was a very unhappy fellow and it was a little while before they were presented to me, but these guys were flicking matches in the tent and they managed to burn it- Not terribly, but they managed to burn it- and of course that was a pretty serious problem. I put it in the hands of their fathers. when they came to pick them up from the trip. I explained what happened and I explained that we don't punish and we don't discipline. but they may take the opportunity to see if they can figure out what happened and they can figure out how we wouldn't have to deal with it in the future. I felt pretty good about handling it that way and I didn't feel as though there was any pressure on the troop to have to be the arbiters of some kind of punishment or something like that. Well, did the behavior stop when the quartermaster went ballistic on it? Yes, well, I think the behavior had already stopped. I think it was discovered, So you didn't have to get in between a dangerous situation and the issue.

Some kind of little piece of brain finally engaged and a clue bird landed and they suddenly realized what kind of condition they were in, and after you talked to their dads then they were starting to get a clue In that particular case. that's exactly perfectly handled and probably turned out in the long run an excellent lesson all around for the quartermaster and for the two scouts, and maybe even the dads, Because they're going to own that tent with a hole in it, with a burn spot in it, for a long time and every time they look at it. they'll remember what they did that they shouldn't have been doing. But yeah, I agree with what you've been saying, that the troop really should not get into the punishment business at all. Very proud of my quartermaster: He managed to express his displeasure without losing his temper and he did it in an unmistakable fashion. I have to say. I was a quartermaster as a scout and I remember opening up the closet and pulling out some Dutch ovens and finding out that there were some Dutch ovens with ecosystems in them Which I hit with a hose from a considerable distance. I don't know what I said at the time, but it wasn't worth many people around Having the ability to dress him down like you say he was doing and not really losing his temper, and that's a skill that will carry him far in life. when he's able to tell people stuff like that- and they'll thank him for doing it Because he does it in such a good way, They understand where he's coming from, but he doesn't belittle them. I think he used the word stupid several times. Well, if you leave shrimp in a Dutch oven and in the closet in Louisiana, I mean stupid could apply.

Listen, we would certainly like to hear from you and we would like to get you to come and join us on the next Scoutmaster panel discussion. We get together once a month and we can have you phone in when we record, and you're going to find out how to do that towards the end of the podcast here, But let me, before we go, thank Larry for joining us this evening. Thank you very much, Larry. We are welcome Clark, and I hope all you guys have a happy holiday and a merry Christmas and all you guys out in scouting land maybe take a week off from troop meetings and hang out with your wife on a Monday or Tuesday night. But everybody, have a good vacation and take care. And Tom, thank you. You're welcome, Clark, and I'd also like to wish everyone a merry Christmas and happy holidays and see you next year. Yep, And Walter, Well, I wish you luck with your axe murderer and the tape to make us all sound smart, But and have a lovely holiday. Yeah, I'll add my best wishes in as well for the holiday season And we'll be back in the new year with another Scoutmaster panel discussion. Thanks a lot, folks,

Thank you.