Scoutmaster Podcast 141

And now it's the old Scoutmaster. So one of my scouts told me that it was difficult for my generation to understand his world. You were up in a different world. He said.

You know, there's there's more computing power in my cell phone than the biggest computer in the world had when you were my age. We have the internet and ways to communicate you could only dream of.

I looked at him and I said: you know, you're right, We didn't have them and we did dream of them, And then we invented them for you and you're welcome. Oh well, hey, this is podcast number 141..

So welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green and this message comes from Bruce Mueller, who is assistant Scoutmaster of troop 209 and Northwest Suburban Council, And he wrote in to say: Clark, I just wanted to drop you a line of thanks. Your words frequently speak to me in the needs of our scouts. They're often shared among leaders of our troop and council, often affirming what we know, occasionally challenged what we think, but they're always appreciated. Keep up the good work. If you're ever in the Chicagoland area, we would be delighted to share a campfire with you anytime and show our thanks.

Well, thanks so much, Bruce, Thanks for your kind words- They always mean a lot- and thanks for being in touch. Over on Google plus, Robert Slike shared this. He said we had a fantastic troop meeting the other night. My boys followed the instructions put out by scoutmastercgcom on how to set up patrols. We had leadership elections and I have a new cadre of youth leaders from the top on down and I'm looking forward to it. And Robert is a Scoutmaster for a troop down in Fort Bragg.

Thanks so much, Robert, and I'm glad you were able to put it to work for your troop. Heard from Mike, who's an assistant Scoutmaster of troop 1434 in Potomac, Maryland. He said I promoted your website and Frank Marinard's blog, Bob White Blather and the Brian on scouting blog and ask Andy column on the net commission during my second week of wood badge training. I remain surprised by how committed scouts are thrilled to learn of these great resources since they haven't yet come across them.

Well, those are some key things I'll tell you. Frank Marinards blog, Bob White Blather, is written from the standpoint of Frank being a committee chair. He's got excellent information on there, something that you definitely want to check out.

Brian on scouting: that's the official blog, I believe of scouting magazine right And always good, up to date information on what's going on with Boy Scouts from America and ask Andy. If you haven't found, ask Andy.

Well, you must rush right over there And he's on the US scouting service project. They are really good resources and, Mike, I am honored to be counted amongst them. Thank you very much. Another Mike, Michael Gros of Crestline, California, wrote in to say this: I have recently discovered your podcast. I'm currently going through the archives and have enjoyed the information and the relaxed, friendly format. I'm volunteering at Forest Lawn Scout Reservation.

I'd like to get permission to broadcast your podcast on our camp radio station. Well, of course you can, Mike, use this podcast and all the other information you find at ScoutmasterCGcom freely. If it can help, if it can support scouting in any way, you go on ahead and use it. And if you go down to the bottom of the page on any page at ScoutmasterCGcom, you'll see the little Creative Commons license thing. It doesn't have many things in the way of restriction and sharing, It's just.

I guess what it's called is a attribution no alteration kind of thing Where so long as you attribute the work to me and so long as you don't alter it. Share it all you want. That's fine. And good friend of the blog and the podcast, Bill Daniel, Scoutmaster from Troop 132, responded to a post that I put out recently. He says: thank you for your service to scouting. You've posted about a divisive subject and naturally we're not going to solve it over the blog.

And Bill goes on to ask this interesting question. He says: should we avoid it in this community of scouts that you and other contributors have created, or be divided or be distracted? This blog and podcast has the effect of approving the hands-on impact of scouts in scouts lives. Every week Its circle of influence is expanding. Troops are improving. Scouts are growing in their ability to help scouts develop through the methods of the program.

I encourage you to stay the course, unify and keep encouraging adults to trust the program because it works Well. Bill, I really do appreciate that.

Now I am going to uncharacteristically and just for a moment, go into this area of debatable questions for a moment. A lot of us have been talking and have been distracted and potentially divided by the news in recent weeks. These are kind of divisive times. We're in the midst of a hotly contested presidential election.

The Boy Scouts of America is working through some major controversies over past practices and reporting child abuse and in challenges to excluding gay leaders and now, apparently, scouts, And this is getting a lot of airtime. These are touchy issues to talk about, but I want to offer my thoughts because I think the airways are full of stories And I know that a lot of us are feeling unsettled- and I mean us. It's unsettling.

I don't know that it's a good idea for me to pass judgment on or discuss the BSA's membership policies, because as soon as we open that door, that's all we're going to be talking about And there are going to be points about which good people can disagree, just like politics and just like religion. OK, And that's why we don't discuss them in detail here, because they distract us from serving our scouts. For a moment, let's lay all those things aside and think about scouting beyond the context of organizations and personalities and see it as its founder did, because Baden Powell and vision. Scouting is a vehicle for bringing peace to the world. Because of this vision, over the last century, Scouting has found a home in many, many places in the world. We reverence and respect different expressions of religions, politics, nationality and culture and, beyond simply tolerating those differences, We accept that they're our strength.

We accept that diversity is important. You know, last summer, high in the Bernie's Alps, in Condorsteg, Switzerland, I had the great pleasure of sitting around a campfire with our fellow scouts from Portugal and we had a wonderful evening.

Just you know, being scouts, We shared some kitchen space and an eating area with scouts from Great Britain. We spent time with scouts from Switzerland, of course, in Brazil and Mauritius and Russia and Kenya and Greece and many other places, And we couldn't all speak the same language, We didn't all worship the same God, We didn't share the same political opinions, but we came together, having a whole lot in common, just because we were scouts, And that's the heart of the movement.

So our scouting movement is bigger than political or religious or moral dogma. Scouting is a simple expression of values common to every enlightened society throughout human history. These values aren't anything new. They're too broad to be owned by any one religious or political or organizational point of view. Each scout judges their own heart. We look on our fellow scouts as we hope they look on us with understanding and acceptance and tolerance.

The genius of scouting is that we look beyond differences to what we hold in common. Now, division is easy, Division is cheap and division is cowardly. And when people try to divide us on matters of politics, on matters of religion, on matters of custom and culture, it's an easy job. Unity is what takes a lot of work. Unity requires us to accommodate charitably those with whom we disagree. It requires us to bravely share our world and ourselves with those who disagree with us.

Organizations and religions and political parties. They're pretty inflexible, They're slow to change, but they do eventually. They're bound by rules and policies and traditions. They're inherently intolerant and insular. They're kind of tribal And these sound like bad things. But all I'm doing is this is just observational.

OK, don't see this as a negative judgment about the nature of organizations. I'm just observing that this is generally true. Maybe the next great leap of humanity will come when we finally do away with all the pettiness and divisions of tribalism and embrace the common good in each other. And I'll bet scouting will have a big part in that.

What did our founder say? What did the guy who put all this together have to tell us?

Well, Beaton Powell, in his last message to scout leaders, said: our aim is to produce healthy, happy, helpful citizens, to eradicate the prevailing narrow self interest: personal, political, sectarian and national, and to substitute for it a broader spirit of self sacrifice and service in the cause of humanity, and thus to develop mutual goodwill and cooperation, not only within our own country but abroad, between all countries. Experience shows that this consummation is no idle or fantastic dream, but is a practical possibility if we work for it. Therefore, you, you scout leaders, are not only doing a great work for your neighbor's children, but you're also helping in a practical fashion to bring to pass God's kingdom of peace and goodwill on earth.

So, from my heart, I wish you Godspeed in your effort. I definitely couldn't say it any better than Beaton Powell. I hope that helps you, in these potentially divisive times, to think a little bit broader and hopefully, to address whatever concerns you may have and to unite us around the common things that we hold.

We're going to have differences of politics, We're going to have differences of religion, We're going to have differences of custom and culture, But we can unite around scouting, can't we? So the remainder of this podcast we're going to spend answering a lot of email questions.

I counted three or four or five, I guess, and they look like important questions that, I think, will help everybody out. So let's get started.

Shall we Write me a letter, send it my name Email? That is folks.

And here's an answer to one of your emails, The first email question. I'm going to withhold the names and the identifying characteristics And you'll see why. I have a situation where my son is essentially being pushed out of scouts by his Scoutmaster. He is 15 and plays club soccer and high school soccer. He's currently a star scout and he is not being allowed to advance the life because he cannot fulfill his position of responsibility for six months straight.

His Scoutmaster will only let him fulfill this position of responsibility by being a patrol leader when there are many other positions available And there's also the option for a special project. But the Scoutmaster is reading the position of responsibility as leadership. My son is basically in the position of choosing soccer or scouts, but he isn't welcome to do both. When you have Scoutmasters who are unwilling to work with the scouts that have other interests besides scouting, that's when you lose a scout too.

That's an upsetting message, isn't it? There are several issues that it suggests that.

Let's see if we can unravel some of this In the star life and eagle requirements. You see the words position of responsibility a term for an office, whether elected or appointed, that a boy holds to qualify for those ranks. The words position of responsibility are carefully chosen because not every boy is a leader and not every boy will become a leader. Quote unquote.

Every scout, by taking out a position of responsibility, is certainly going to use some leadership skills and is certainly going to develop some leadership skills, But, quite wisely to my mind, we have divorced the term leadership from position of responsibility, because too many people use it to discourage- as is in the case of the person who sent me this email- rather than encourage scouts. So if we look at it from the standpoint of a position of responsibility and fulfilling those responsibilities, the intention of the requirement becomes much clearer, doesn't it?

So remember, when evaluating whether or not a scout has fulfilled a position of responsibility, it's not whether or not he has fulfilled a leadership position, even though we use the terms interchangeably a lot. Just, you know, as we hack around and we do scouting. But remember that that's what the requirement says: position of responsibility.

OK, One of the other things we can kind of unravel here is this particular Scoutmaster's objection that the boy is not serving in a continuous fashion for six months. Well, if you go to the Guide to Advancement 2011,, you will find continuous service may not be required by the unit to qualify for a rank.

If a boy is active for three months and then he's away for two, and then he's active for another two, and he's away for one, and he's active for another month in and then he's away for one, He's got his six months. So service in a position of responsibility does not have to be continuous.

Then let's talk about active. OK, Because this Scoutmaster- and I didn't read you the entire email, I kind of edited it a little bit- But this Scoutmaster is also concerned that the scout is not fulfilling the active requirement because he hasn't been to the troop standard.

They've said a numerical standard of something like 75 percent of the meetings and 50 percent of the outings or something like that, And so he hasn't met that metric standard and the Scoutmaster considers that that's the end of the story. As far as active goes, Again, go to the Guide to Advancement, Go to section four. Take a look at how active is determined, because there's a very easy three step process. We've discussed this before.

So step number one is he's registered. That's easy, That's just an administrative thing.

He's a registered scout, That's all we need. Step number two: he's in good standing. And it's going to be extraordinarily rare that a scout is not in good standing because what that means is he's not been dismissed for disciplinary reasons or, for one way or one way or another, excluded from membership by the local council. And step number three is that if the troop establishes a metric standard- and yes, that's allowed, I wouldn't do it in a million years if it was me- OK, but some troops find that useful- If he meets the troops metric standard of whatever they decide- 75 percent or 50 percent or something like that- then he meets the requirements. If he doesn't meet that standard, though, he must, MUST, must be allowed to be evaluated under an alternative method that considers the activities outside his unit and outside of scouting.

That's a policy statement and there's no getting away from it. So if you're a troop, you've established a metric standard about being active and a scout doesn't meet that, then the next thing that you do is you talk with the scout and you ask him what he's doing outside of scouting. That's kept him away.

The thing that scouting wants to do is not totally monopolize a boy's time so they can't be involved in anything else and make him pay attention only to what he's doing in scouting. We want him to be an active member of his community.

We want him to be an active member of his school and his family and his religious institution. I mean, come on, that's what we want.

So scouting does not begin and end at the threshold of the troop meeting room or the gateway to the campsite. It's in the community And these are not things that well, we'll just consider this because we don't want to make the boy upset or anything. No, this is real achievement.

He is out there living the scout oath and law and expressing that in the things that he is doing in the community, And so we consider that It's fair. It's what we do for scouts.

For the 30-some years that I've been around scouting, I get tired of people carrying on about older scouts and how we have to do all this crazy stuff to keep older scouts around. We have to have these special programs and and somebody coined the whole fumes thing years and years ago. And if you haven't heard that when a scout turns 15 or 16, you lose them to the fumes, perfumes and car fumes and whatever I don't know. I've never liked that because it's simply not true.

If you present the scout program, So if he has real responsibilities leading his troop and he is engaged and involved in that, he's gonna stay interested. And the other thing is is that you can't build a fence around him and say all you do is what you do with your troop. He's going to do sports, He's going to be in six different clubs after school. He's going to be in his church youth group. We see those not as being competing with scouting. Actually, we see it as an expression of the scout oath and law at work in a young man's life.

Here's a 15-year-old boy who's out actively playing soccer and he's really interested in that, okay. And like 15-year-old boys, they get on a tear about soccer or football or basketball. It's the most important thing in the world to them. That may last for a month or a couple of years, or it may last for a lifetime and more power to them. That's great.

So what do you want? Do you want scouting to be all or nothing for those boys, Or do you want scouting to be a part of their lives? When we present the program properly, when we administer the advancement program properly. We are letting scouting be a part of their lives.

Okay, And that's the most important point. I also had this email from Ann Olson up in Plymouth, Minnesota, and I mispronounced Plymouth very intentionally there.

So you can email me again and tell me how to properly pronounce it Inside. Joke there, folks, you gotta go back a couple of podcasts, pick that one up. But Ann asked: I'm working as a unit commissioner for a pack and troop that rarely uses den chiefs.

I think the stumbling block is the training requirement which the Scoutmaster believes he has to conduct himself at some point in his busy schedule. I found a 45-minute online training module, but is there any more to it than that?

Well, Ann, I did a little looking around. I don't think there's a training requirement for den chiefs unless a scout's working as a den chief and he wants to get a den chief award.

So I don't know whether I would call it a requirement. I think training would be useful for them. I don't know if they need a 45-minute online training or if they just need a little bit of an introduction and working together with the den leader and maybe facilitating that. But in your position as a commissioner, I'd recommend you get all of those resources together, share them with the troop and the pack and maybe you offer to facilitate whatever training orientation is needed. The Scoutmaster- there's no rule that says he has to conduct the training.

He may feel like he's the only one who can conduct the training, But if that's all then in his way I think he ought to reconsider it. Den chiefs are a great thing. It can take some real effort to establish them and establish a relationship with a cub pack, But having den chiefs, especially in Weebelow's dens, is a pretty important thing for maintaining a good relationship between packs and troops.

Dave wrote in and he said: I'm looking for some documentation that answers the question of whether or not we can take a Weebelow's patrol camping with our troop without their parents. I am hoping that you can point me to that document. The idea of this overnight it was to provide the Weebelows a first opportunity to camp without their parents but still with familiar peers and adults. I have always understood that Weebelow's patrols can camp using troop rules. The funny thing is is that all these boys are bridging into troops in December. It's not like something crazy will change in them or me in the next two months when there won't be any rules in our way about them camping with the troop.

Dave, thanks for getting in touch and thanks for asking the question. I went to the guide to safe scouting, which is easy to find online- Guide to safe scouting, Google search. Take your right to it.

And there are age guidelines for camping. Okay, And I'm gonna read two of them to you. One is overnight camping by Tiger, Cub Wolf and Bear Cub Scout Dens. As dens is not approved, That's an easy statement to understand. Not approved, can't do it as a den. The reason that I read that will be clear in just a moment.

So what about Weebelow's dens? Well, this is what the guide says: A Weebelow Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by an adult. In most cases, the Weebelow Scout will be under the supervision of his parent or guardian. In most cases, It's essential that each Weebelow Scout be under the supervision of a parent-approved adult. Joint Weebelow's den troop campouts, including the parents of the Weebelow Scouts, are encouraged to strengthen ties between the pack and the troop. Den leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

So question number one: can Weebelow's go camping as a den? Yes, What kind of things need to happen there?

While they need to be under the supervision of a parent or guardian and their leaders or a parent-approved adult, right, Can Weebelow's dens go on troop campouts? Joint Weebelow's, den and troop campouts are encouraged and it does especially note including the parents of Weebelow's. It says den leaders, pack leaders and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips. That statement's kind of fuzzy. Give some qualifications there and it doesn't do it in a really clear way, at least to my mind. All right, On one hand it says in most cases- and that would lead me to believe- that parents do not have to accompany Weebelow's, but then when it talks about joint campouts with a den and a troop, that it kind of indicates the parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips.

So the conditions that I would wanna see after reading this is that all the Weebelow's will be accompanied by a parent-approved adult and that could be a den or a pack leader. You know, every once in a while we run up against these kind of fuzzy areas and we need to use our common sense.

Why would we have any special considerations at all around Weebelow's camping? Well, at their age we want them to have access to familiar adults who know the boys.

We want parents, den leaders or pack leaders will fill that bill. And why do we want cub leaders to have any kind of special training, like blue, before they go camping?

So that they concentrate on the particular needs of the boys of that age and conduct age-appropriate activities? Okay, So that's the reason that those things are in place. And while a Scoutmaster's training may apply to a scouting, we're not maybe familiar with what's appropriate for younger boys in a Weebelow's den.

Okay, And that year or two between when they first joined Weebelow's and they become Boy Scouts, it's a very big difference. Even a couple of months is a big difference at that age And it is more than likely that something crazy will change in them in the next two months. They'll be two months older, And that's actually a pretty big deal when you're 10 or 11 years old.

These rules around all this- they may be a little fuzzy and they may be difficult to find at times, but they're working because they lead us to think about what we're doing a little bit more and understanding the reasons that the rules are there in the first place and then applying the concepts behind them, And I would also note that the tour plan process is pretty good at making sure that we have the right kind of training prerequisites for the activities that we're planning. So if it passes muster there, I think that's a pretty good indication that you're good to go.

You know there are a lot more rules and regulations out there now than there were 30 years ago when I first became an adult volunteer right, And whenever I look at them you know what. They seem to be pretty intelligent and they help us avoid putting scouts in harm's way and they focus us on the most effective parts of the program.

So this question comes from Michael Kerry, who's the committee chair of Troop 167 in Charlotte, North Carolina, And Michael emails me and says: Clark, I enjoy your podcast. Well, thank you, Michael. Always nice to hear that.

Do any of your past podcasts discuss new scout patrols and their pros and cons? We currently don't have one, but the idea is being talked about and I'm looking for others past experiences. Thanks for your time.

Well, thanks for being in touch, Mike. That's a great question. It's one that's been discussed in general, but I don't think really specifically on the podcast.

So to answer it, we've really got to think about some basics about patrols. One of the most elemental things about scouting that we adults sometimes forget is that boys volunteer to be scouts so they can hang out with their friends and go camping.

I mean, that's, you know, basically it They reduce that whole statement to. I want to have fun. In order to get at this question, I'm going to go back and I'm going to go back. Let's go all the way back to the founding of the scout movement and when it started.

So bear with me for a moment. In the early part of the last century this new book appears- Scouting for Boys- And it shows up in the United States and it just starts to spread like wildfire. Boys everywhere are getting the book. They're getting a gang of their buddies together and they're forming patrols. They're becoming scouts. Nobody's telling them that they need to do this.

You know adults aren't out looking for them and saying: we want you to be scouts. They just get the book and they're just so energized by the concept that they decide: I want to be a scout.

So they make up a patrol and eventually the patrols you know are happening all over the country And soon there's patrols of scouts in every neighborhood, in every town And eventually they decide it would be fun to go camping with another patrol and they enlist the help of some adults and the idea of a scout troop comes about. And then that scout troop idea: well, we need some help.

So we'll get together with the other troops in town and you understand where we're going. In a very short period of time we end up with a national administrative organization that's helping these boys do the things that they do.

We go from there to what we have as the prevailing practice today Is that a boy, you know, joins a Cub Scout pack and he spends several years in a Cub Scout pack and then time comes for him to join a scout troop And so he transitions up into a scout troop and somebody puts him in a patrol, Just like they did when he was in a Cub Scout pack. You're in this den. Not a whole lot of choice there.

You know, this is your den, And so a lot of times that's what we end up with at the scout troop level. We just repeat that practice and we say, well, you're gonna be in such and such patrol, the new scout patrol, or you're gonna be in this one, And that patrol may or may not be very important in the way the troop is administered, depending on how well the adults in the troop comprehend and understand the importance of patrols. Zoom out for a moment and look at our national organization, And our national organization is a great organization but it understands things on a very macro level And from a national standpoint. We know several things.

One of the leading indicators is that we know scouts stay in scouting longer If they reach first class rank earlier, And so the rule of thumb is: we'd love to see them become first class rank in the first year. It just gets proven out by surveys and numbers and things like that. And we know that older scouts are supposed to be caring for and leading these younger scouts, but it doesn't always work in practice to the satisfaction of adults who are administering troops.

And so you know we hear from adults mostly and we know that there are some people out there with promising practices and we look at one and it's this new scout patrol idea And that is where we have a group of new boys and we put them into the troop as a patrol and they get an older scout who's kind of their troop guide and then an adult also mentors that patrol And you know what. It looks great on paper And it works.

If the troop is administered by adults and basically led by adults, it works pretty well And I've gotten really no argument. Boys have a great experience in troops that are administered by adults as well as they have in troops that are administered by youth.

You know what? I can't really argue with the results that happen.

I would say I would prefer that our troops were administered by youth, because I think that's what scouting actually is. But let's lay that aside for a moment.

And we know that suggested practices that optimize the leading indicators are a good thing, And so we develop and promote this idea of a new scout patrol. Let's contrast what happened in the founding of scouting and what we're doing today.

Okay, We've got basically two practices and the founding years of scouting. Boys are energized and interested in the concept. They form their own patrols And present practice is, in most cases, that decision is kind of an administrative one on the part of the troop.

So, having gotten the case and contrasted those two things, I have an opinion. I amazing, right, I have an opinion about this.

Well, anybody who's gonna take the time to stand here with a microphone and better have an opinion. I think scouts ought to be the ones to answer these questions, just like they did back when scouting was just beginning to get off the ground. When new scouts join a troop, I go to the senior patrol leader and I ask him what he'll be doing about this.

He knows that they need to go into patrol and I'll say: how are you gonna do that? I said, well, he's already in whatever patrol And I'll say: sounds good to me and that'll be the end of the discussion. Nine times out of 10, a boy joining the troop who was not in a Webelos den before already has a buddy in a patrol somewhere and that's just gonna work well.

But what about that group of new Webelos that are coming into the troop? Should we put them in a new scout patrol?

Should we call it a new scout patrol? What do you wanna do?

How do you wanna do it? Sometimes it works for them just to come in and be in all in one patrol. Sometimes they get split up. It really depends on what they want, because it's their volunteering to be part of this. Let them make a choice and let them change their minds, because they're boys and they need to change their minds all the time.

What about balancing patrols? Shouldn't you have?

If we have 24 boys in patrols, we should have patrols of eight guys apiece. And what about that?

And well, you know what, From an administrative standpoint you'd like nice, even patrols, right. But from a boy standpoint, do they really care?

You know, I would love to see them build a patrol up to a strength of eight, but if there's five guys in a patrol and that's what they like and that's working for them, who am I gonna be to come in and say: we gotta even the numbers up here. Okay, If they've got 10 guys in one patrol and five guys in another patrol and three guys in a patrol, it's not what I would call optimum, but if it's working, why do I wanna stir the pot?

Why do I wanna mess with that? Being able to do this presupposes another thing. It kind of pulls on another thread and that's youth leadership.

Now, if the youth of the troop, if the youth in that scout troop, have actual responsibility to take care of things, if they're actually leading and they're not just figureheads, then they can make these decisions pretty well If they've been trained to lead and they've been inculcated with the concept that they are to care for, support and be a big brother to younger scouts, that these are not just little, bothersome little kids that are just getting in their way And they have a free hand in making the kinds of decisions about who's in what patrol and things like that. I think that the quality of their decisions will be better than those based on kind of administrative concerns and things. Perhaps you would like me to tell you one way or the other what to do, but that gives you some food for thought as you sit and make that decision. In my book, let the boys choose. They make better decisions anyway. That's why they're in the troop in the first place, because they want to be with their buddies.

If a new group comes in and it would be useful for them to have an older scout working with them, then let the senior patrol leader make that decision right And monitor and advise and mentor and do all the things that we always talk about right. But, Michael, I appreciate the question and let me know if I can explain it better or be of any further assistance. ["The Scoutmaster Podcast"].