Scoutmaster Podcast 123

And now it's the old Scoutmaster.

So here we are at our campsite And this guy comes riding through on a horse And he stops and talks with us a little while And, yeah, it's a beautiful horse, But the horse does. you know what horses do? The guy's getting ready to ride away. I look at what the horse left there on the ground And I say to the rider I said, hey, buddy, are you going to leave that lion here? And he looks at me and he says no, it's a horse And I'm taking it with me.

I'm sorry. Hey, this is podcast number 123..

Welcome back to the Scoutmaster podcast. This is Clarke Green. Hey, let's take a look at the mailbag here. Well, we got a few messages about our last podcast, which was a Scoutmaster panel discussion about parent issues, And Peter LaRue wrote in and he said: great show about dealing with parents. It can be particularly tough for younger scouts. There's some nice pointers there. One tip I found helpful with difficult parents is to ask them to get involved running things that they're unhappy about. This has one of two results: They either backpedal and leave you alone or get involved and often surprise you with their involvement. True, True, And Greg Sepley backs you up, Peter, because Greg wrote in and said: Peter has a great point. What I usually do after they complain or get vocal about something is ask them what they would do in my place And then, after they tell me what they would do, I say: you're hired, That's great. This almost always is followed by them taking the whole thing down a notch.

Thanks, Greg, Nice little word of wisdom there. Ann Olson wrote in again and said: this show came in handy for us this week. That's great to hear. And we also heard from Derek Morton who said really great stuff. I'm amazed every week how relevant your podcasts are. Thank you Well, thank you for being in touch, Derek. And Steve Mahoney wrote in. He said: hey, Clark, I'm currently a Cub Scouter, but I listened to your podcast to understand the Scouting program better. You're a big help. Thanks very much. Thanks very much, Steve. I really appreciate you listening in. So in this podcast we're going back to podcast number 74.. Remember podcast number 74, how we all loved it. Yes, I remember it well. And we're going back to hear an episode of Scout MasterChip in seven minutes or less dealing with summer camp, Because you know it's that time of year started thinking about summer camp. I got a great summer camp story to tell you, And I have a couple of reflections gleaned from an email question that I received this week. So that's enough for this podcast, Wouldn't you say, Because that's what I'm saying, That's what I got for you. So let's get started, shall we? Scout MasterChip in seven minutes or less.

One of the most fun things I've gotten to do in scouting was be on our camp staff, And I was able to do that for about 12 years as a director in different departments and as a camp director, And so the advice I'm about to give you is kind of based on watching hundreds of different troops and thousands of different scout leaders over those 12 years come and experience a week of summer camp. There's some common difficulties and problems that arise, And there's some things that you can do that will just make things go a lot better for you while you're there at camp with your scouts, And scout camp is a great place to go if you're a scout. It's fun, There's lots of challenges, There's great stuff to do, And it's the same as when you're an adult. It's just a little bit of a different level. Now, if it's the first couple of times you go to scout camp, it can be really stressful. It can be. you know. you can be faced with a lot of new things, a lot of things that you're unfamiliar with. You're not quite sure what the expectations are. So you do have to take real good care of yourself. Now that's if you've been going to camp, you know if this year is your first time or your 25th year going. You have to take good care of yourself physically, because if you take good care of yourself physically you're going to be in good shape mentally to handle camp. Our camp is one of the only remaining ones that has a seven day schedule. We bring everybody in on Sunday and they leave on the following Sunday, So somebody gets to camp. You know your average adult leader gets to camp on a Sunday afternoon And yeah, first day of camp. that's kind of stressful. There's a lot of things to do, There's new things to learn, There's people to meet, places to get to, And you might feel a little bit rushed and by the time you're headed off to bed that night you're probably pretty tired and you may sleep well and you may not. And you know the food's going to be a little different, The water's going to be a little different. Your latrine's going to be a little different. You're going to have a lot of the same experiences that the boys do with unfamiliar stressors and things like that. But you're also going to be older than they are. I don't know if you notice that. So you know your abilities are going to be compromised maybe by being a bit older than they are, being a little more set in your ways, and you could become cranky real fast. And how do I know this? Do I have to tell you? I mean, I've been there, I've done it, I've not taken very good care of myself physically and then I get real cranky and yeah, then things just get ugly. So if you are hot, tired, hungry, thirsty, you need to get cool, you need to get rested, you need to get fed and you need to get hydrated. And that's going to be a pretty big service to you yourself personally, your fellow leaders, your troop and the camp staff. If you're not cranky and mean, it's going to make the whole week go a lot easier. So that's one key piece of advice. You're coming into a situation that you may not be familiar with, but you've got a staff there, people who are adults and who've been at it for a long time. and then you've got young adults, guys who are around college age, who've got a lot of energy and may have been at the camp staff job for several years. and then you've got a bunch of younger staff members who are basically learning right along with your scouts. They're learning a lot of things right along with your scouts. Now they probably are a little bit farther ahead of them as far as the camp things go, but maturity-wise and things like that, they're going to be more like your average 15,, 16,, 17-year-old And you've got to take that into account. You need to be considerate and supportive of them in the same way that you're considerate and supportive of your scouts. You never, ever want to step in and be raid or criticize or argue with a camp staff member. You don't want to do that with a youth leader in your troop. You don't want to do that with a fellow adult leader and you certainly don't want to do that in the presence of scouts. And now model how much you may think that that staff member deserves it. What you want to do is you want to have either a quiet talk with them or their boss, at an appropriate distance from the scouts and that will usually solve the problem, And sometimes that might be your problem. You have to realize that camp staff members are totally dedicated to making your stay worthwhile and your idea of what might be right and their idea of what might be right could be two different things. So you kind of got to go with the flow a little bit. You got to join in the program and encourage your scouts to do so, even if the program, in your humble opinion, isn't all that great. If you go to a scout camp and you eat in a dining hall, there's usually a program around the dining hall time and you know it may be a really great whizbang, high energy program and it might not be all that great. but what really encourages a lackluster kind of difficult program is a lively audience. A lively audience goes a long, long way and you and your troop, with the right attitude, could be the catalyst that makes for a great week for everybody in camp. You know, in the vast scheme of things I know that as a staff member and as a directory camp we always emphasize that we were serving scouts and scout leaders and we were doing our dangest to make them comfortable and to make things work well for them. Now, that's being said, You don't want to go pulling rank as an adult or a scout leader. You don't want to ask for special privileges. You don't want to try and impress the staff members with your self-importance. A lot of people instantly respect your position as a scout leader and they're going to try and do their best for you. Just don't make a big giant deal out of it. There's really no rank to be pulled there and remember that these guys are working hard trying to help you, So just go easy. You need to look for the opportunities to participate with a lot of gusto and a lot of spirit in ceremonies and traditions and practices of the camp, even if they're unfamiliar to you. If it's the first time you end up at a scout camp, and maybe it's a new one that you're trying out with your troop, get into it, Jump right in. Camps and camp staff members are very proud of their traditions and you don't want to try to impose the way that everybody did it at the last camp you were at or the way that you think it should be done. Let them call the shots, Let them run the show and just jump in and have a great time with it. You'll be a camp with a lot of different scout troops who will be run one way, but you might be doing things a different way and sometimes little inner troop rivalries may develop. Now, scout age boys, as you know, they're pretty hyper competitive and they need to be reminded about fairness and courtesy and sportsmanship every once in a while. So you want to set the tone, when there's competition, of it being a gentlemanly, scout-like competition, and you want to make sure that you require that of your scouts. As always, with anything we do, give our youth leaders all the responsibility for success, See that they understand what needs to be done, how and why, and then observe them from a respectful distance, Check in with them every evening, ask lots of questions and put your ore in when you're asked for it where it's a matter of safety, but otherwise, let them run their troop, let them work with the camp program and the camp staff to do that. You know you can run a lot of interference by learning what happens next for them or if you have the experience that you can share with them. You know, be proud of your scouts, Encourage them and congratulate them, admire them, but let them have all the responsibility and all the credit for the success of their troop.

This has to be the truth, folks, because there is no way way anyone could make this up. So this story happened in 1993- wow, almost 20 years ago, can you believe it? I was working at our camp and I was serving, I'm pretty sure, that year. I was the camp commissioner and so I was down there for the whole summer and we had just a fantastic staff at camp, and amongst the staff was Mr Peter J Mendez, a force of nature.

He was a program director and Pete's been one of my favorite people in scouting for a very long time and we've kept up correspondence and friendship. I was in his wedding a year or two ago and but Pete and I somehow, somehow, in that kind of magic alchemy that is a summer at camp, latched on to this song from wait for it now, Ran and Stimpy. Do you remember Ran and Stimpy? Yeah, a questionable cartoon. we were big fans. and so there was this song and it was about a fictitious product called LOG.

It's on your back, It's long, long, long. It's long, long. It's heavy, it's wood, It's long, long. It's better than that, it's good.

So Pete and I somehow got in the habit of, during meals in the dining hall, singing the LOG song and a lot of the scouts- well, they were Ran and Stimpy fans too- and so they caught on pretty quickly and this began to snowball on us. it started to snowball on us and I remember one meal- I think it was Pete and I- found LOGs and we brought them into the dining hall and we presented them as our pet LOGs and we encouraged the scouts to go and adopt a LOG, because you know it's a scout-like thing to do.

and so at the next meal a bunch of the scouts had LOG with them and they introduced their pet friend, the LOG. and then we talked about the different rules for having a LOG. for instance, you needed to keep your LOG on a leash- that was a rule around camp- and the leash needed to be applied to the LOG with nothing other than a timber hitch, because otherwise you might injure the LOG. so imagine this: now you're walking around camp one day and you- not every single scout, but a good many of them- have a LOG at the end of a rope, dragging it around between their different Maribad sessions.

then we hit on the idea that we needed to issue LOG tags, you know, like dog tags, but you needed a license to have a LOG at camp. so we quick put together a little form and everything like that and threw it on the photocopier and we photocopied out LOG registration forms and you could come up to the headquarters building and you could register your LOG at the headquarters building for the sum of ten cents

and we give you a tag that you could staple to your LOG. and that way when we were out and around and we found somebody running around with a LOG on a rope, we checked their registrations and so you know, every single meal there would be something about the LOG. and as the week grew, people were variously amused and aggravated by the entire development and and I remember that the whole thing kind of culminated in a couple of the other guys on staff getting a LOG that way I think was maybe about 10 or 12 feet long- and bringing it into the dining hall. and it was a very memorable event, very memorable summer. now we have the habit of putting plaques up around the dining hall. you know, a troop can make one and there's always one that the staff makes and it goes up and it's still there in our dining hall with- I think I got to be stimpy and Pete got to be Wren- painted on this plaque along with LOG, and so the memory of that summer is memorialized for future generations to puzzle over.

well, here's a recent email exchange I had. I'm withholding the name and location of the person who sent me the email and you'll see why, but it's kind of typical of emails I get from time to time and a parent emails me asking my advice and resolving a conflict they have with a Scoutmaster. this is the situation that was described to me. my son had one requirement left to do for first class, the compass and orientation hike. I notified the Scoutmaster that my son would miss the troop meeting where they were doing this requirement, and he emailed me back stating he would work with my son to get the course completed at the next meeting. in our troop, the Scoutmaster is the only one that signs off requirements. on rare occasions an assistant Scoutmaster will sign them off. we did get to the next meeting and my son did get a few of his requirements that he had already completed signed off and that was kind of like pulling teeth. at the end of the meeting the Scoutmaster told me and my son that even though they didn't get the course done that night, that if he came the next week he would get the course done and have the Scoutmaster conference and border review and then become a first class scout. then I got an email from the Scoutmaster in the ensuing week that said there would be too much going on at the meeting and he wouldn't have time to work with my son at that meeting. all they did was play games. nobody helped my son. there was plenty of time and I even contacted the committee chair but he never responded. I even had a friend step up and talk to the committee chair and he said that my son just can't complete the compass course. now, after two promises to my son to get this taken care of, I'm disappointed in this troop. this is not the scouting way. nowhere do I read in the handbook that the course has to be done with a group and technically none of the boys have really earned the requirement, because it turns out the course that they did was not as the requirement described. I do have a friend whose son is in the troop too, and he and his wife went out of their way to set up an official compass oriented course last night with my son. they're going to try their best to get the situation resolved but as of now the committee chair is not returning phone calls and I just wanted to know what you think would be the next steps and, as I said, I'm withholding the name and the location for obvious reasons. now I know how upsetting this sort of thing is and how frustrating it can all be, and I'm going to challenge a couple of things that this parent is doing and I wanted to come across with all the kindness and empathy with which it is intended. there are a couple of basic missteps being made that have kind of snowballed into this situation and I think basically it comes down to three major issues to discuss. the description of the troop program that I gleaned from this email sounds like more of an extension of Weeblows than it does. Boy Scouts, the Scoutmaster signing all the requirements to complete them when and where he sees fit. there is no reason that a scout couldn't complete this first class requirement on his own or with a buddy outside of a troop meeting or event. I know that if he came to me with his handbook and he described how he accomplished the requirement, I'd ask him some questions maybe and I'd sign it off. but more likely than not, my youth leaders would do that: sign many handbooks. the second problem: I see, and I think I understand why it's happened, but I have to wonder why this parent is so involved in this. I mean, why aren't they, instead of their son, dealing with the Scoutmaster and making these arrangements? again, we're in Weeblows territory, not Boy Scout territory. I would- and I say this as kindly and understandingly as possible- encourage them to allow the boy, allow that scout, the autonomy to make these decisions and plans for himself. he'll certainly learn and grow a great deal more if he does. and number three: what's the source of the conflict here? what's the problem? well, because this particular Scoutmaster has reserved all authority to himself and is not- and this is my opinion, based only on what this parent has told me- the scout program functioned properly and that causes parents to become defensive and over involved, and they get over involved in charting their son's ways forward and then inevitably this is going to turn into a conflict somewhere. now, if you listen to the last podcast and the Scoutmaster panel discussion we had about parent issues, if you're following the program, the program stands on its own and defends itself. if you're not following the program- like as I said in my judgment based on this email, this particular Scoutmaster not following the program- then you're opening yourself up to these kind of arguments and difficulties. some parents are going to be over involved and you have to kind of explain the program to them and ask them to step back a little bit and see if you can get them to work with that, and in 99% of the instances you're going to. so my final advice to this parent is: stop arguing. don't stop arguing with the Scoutmaster. stop bothering the committee chair about this. this is snowballed into this kind of conflict because nobody's right, because they're not following the scout program. okay, I. why are they doing requirements at a troop meeting? now everybody's going to say, Clark, everybody does requirements at a troop meeting. well, yeah, kind of maybe, but we're not in business to do requirements. we do the things that scouts do and that just happens to be requirements. parent mentioned in the email an official orienteering course with the compass and everything like that. there's no such thing. there's no such thing. there is an orienteering course that the requirement describes, and you just do that in the course of a thing, or maybe you do it at a troop meeting or something like that. but why are you doing it? not, though, so that scouts can fulfill requirements, but so that scouts can do the things that scouts do. that's how they advance in scouting: not by fulfilling requirements, but by doing the things that scouts do. now, if you find yourself toe to toe with the way that a troop is operating, you have two basic options: you stay with the current troop and accept that you don't like the way that they do things, or you find another troop that better suits your idea of scouting. to me, that decision is always up to the scout. now, recently, I had a boy in my troop who was getting discouraged with scouting and really didn't enjoy it anymore because the friends that had crossed over with him from Webelos and who had joined their troop had left. they decided that they weren't interested in scouting anymore and they quit scouts, and he was the only one left, and his father was quite involved in everything like that and dad came to us and he said: you know, this is a real problem for me because I want to continue on. I was an eagle scout. I'd love my son to be an eagle scout, but he's just not interested in this anymore because none of his friends are there. and that's the only reason that a boy- you know, when a boy is 11 or 12 or years old, he gets the idea that scouting is fun, perhaps that he's building his character and stuff like that. but what's his motive for being involved? his friends are involved. he had a buddy in school who was involved with this other troop and so I told dad I said: well, what about the other troop? does he have any friends that are involved there? and they went and visited that find out that he has friends. so they moved to the other troop. no problem, no problem, the boys still in scouts. dad will be able to be involved with him, even though dad would rather stay with our troop because dad likes the way that we do things. so if you're going to make a decision about this, it starts with the scout. listen, you're in the troop with your friends. I'm having a little problem seeing that my way forward. I don't think that they're doing things quite the way that I envision them. do you want to stay there with your friends, or shall we look for another troop? maybe the answer is going to come back and you don't like the answer, which is no, I want to stay with my friends. even in a troop that's not strictly applying the scouting program, boys get a good experience. boys are still going to have a fine experience out of it. we're talking about, sometimes, degrees of things here, aren't we? so let's just go back over this again. there are three problems here. obviously, this troop, in my opinion, based on the email that I read, is not following the scout program in the optimal way that it should happen. this causes conflict and the conflict is kind of irresolvable because they're not following the program. and because they're not following the program, a parent is getting over involved and that causes conflict too and it's kind of irresolvable why we're not following the program. so the options basically come down to this: you stick with this troop where, if you just can't see your way through, you find something that better suits your idea of scouting. you're not going to change this troop and, forgive me, I've probably said this any number of times on the blog and the podcast, but I'm going to repeat it again: for a parent to get in and to try and change the way that a troop operates- especially if it's a troop of long standing and they have a certain way of operating- is pretty much a fool's errand. most of the time some people make it work, but it's because they are very patient and they work very carefully and they go forward very incrementally. the people with authority within the organizational structure of scouting are the chartered organization represented, the troop committee chairman and the head of the chartered organization. if they're not interested in making changes, no changes are going to be made, and so you're just going to be creating a lot of heat and very little light. so my advice to people is usually: look, you don't really jibe with the way that they're doing things. find another place where it works better for you. or if your son really wants to stay here because his friends are here, then you're just going to live with it, because this is not an experience for you, this is an experience for your son. and once again, what is it all about? what's this whole thing that we're involved in all about? it's focused on the boy. it's to give him certain experiences and challenges and opportunities. he gets to do that with a group of his friends and we get to have what Baden Powell called the jollity of scouting. it's a fun time- it should be a great time- where we grow and we learn together. when conflicts come up, we can certainly resolve them, and when we're running the scouting program, when we're doing what the program says, we not only avoid conflicts, but when they inevitably arise- and they will- we have a way to resolve them. so I hope that helps everybody. if you're in the middle of a similar situation or if you have a question that you'd like to hear answered on the podcast, you can get in touch with me and you'll find out how to do that in just a moment.