Scoutmaster Podcast 106

And now the old Scoutmaster. I just wanted to tell you what kind of fine mess you've gotten me into, Ollie, Uh-oh, Uh-oh. The year ago, in two weeks, I first found you, the MTS at the Merckbad University.

This year, the same guy is running the adult sessions and he says, well, now that you are an international podcast participant, I go: oh, we've got one listener. Huh, We're going to do a panel discussion on something I don't know exactly what, but he's putting together a couple of people. I'm trying to make us all famous. I'm already in. I'm not infamous. Hey, this is podcast 106..

Hey, hey,

Welcome back to the Scoutmaster Podcast. This is Clark Greene. Let's take a look in the mailbag.

Now, this isn't an actual mailbag, it's a virtual mailbag. That's right, because most of these messages come via email or comments on the blog there.

We had a blog post the past week called How We Doing and it was more or less about concentrating on scouts, and you know we have lots of numbers that we can look at to evaluate what we're doing. That the real test of our effectiveness is that the program actually impacts a scout. That's what really counts. Mike Mansor wrote in to say our troop has about 20 new Webelos crossing over in a few weeks. Shortly afterward we plan a parent orientation.

I thought of the message I want to share to start our discussion and I'd like to use this post And I think I'll close with the poem that Frank suggested. All you guys have really helped me to keep perspective and focus on the job our adults do for our boys.

Well, thanks, Mike. We'll talk about that poem in just a second here. John Collins wrote in to say thanks for the post, Clark, definitely a good one, And thank you, Frank, for the link to that poem. It really puts it all in perspective. Michael Asbell said very good thoughts. It's easy to lose sight of the forest for all the trees.

Thank you so much for your website, Clark. I do my best to read each and every post Alan Green wrote in. He said: Clark, it amazes me how you can cut to the heart of a matter in just a short article. A few years ago my dad gave me a letter from his Scoutmaster recommending dad for the Eagle rank that he earned in 1945 at age 15.. He's 81 years old now. The letter clearly indicates his Scoutmaster held dad in some esteem, That my dad kept the letter all those years as a tribute to the importance his Scoutmaster held in his life.

I was similarly inspired by my Scoutmaster, Mr Reynolds, always a pillar of strength, and his assistant, Mr Yates, who seemed to know everything about the outdoors and genuinely liked hanging around with us goofball kids. I don't remember all the places we went or all the things we've done, but I know that it made a big difference and I know that I had fun.

Perhaps in 30 years some of the goofball kids I hang around with now will remember the time we all shared in scouting at some of the best times of the young lives. Well, Alan, I can guarantee that they will, And that's a clear chain right down through two or three generations of scouts right there, And thanks for sharing that with us.

Frank Maynard wrote: Indeed, we so often forget that we are not out to teach camping and not tying and cooking and hiking or aquatics to young people. We use those as methods to impart the values, and the true measure of success is whether or not those values have taken hold. A favorite poem of mine has long been a Scouter's Golden Opportunity, and it puts our mission in perspective.

Well, thanks, Frank, for pointing us to that poem and thanks for your kind words there. I got the poem that Frank suggested and I made a post out of it on the blog there.

So go to scoutmastercgcom and you'll find it, And I'll also have a link in the post that contains this podcast. Back at podcast number 105, Jeff Pearson wrote in and said: again: a great podcast. I look forward to each week to the next one.

Thanks so much for your efforts. Great reply to the email on who determines leadership positions.

Well, thanks, Jeff, and it's good to have you listening And over on Twitter, Scouter Dean tweeted. I do read and share your blog regularly. Cheers from Canada. Thanks, Dean, for being in touch. Canada, one of my favorite places in the world, And we do have a fair number of listeners and readers up in Canada.

So in this podcast we're going to take up the rest of the podcast

With a extended version of the Scoutmaster panel discussion And the first part of what we're talking about, the order of the hour. We have a special guest, T W Cook, from down in Texas, And then in the second part, a question from a brand new scoutmaster, brand new trip, Dr Blaise Vitale, And I'm sure that you're going to enjoy the entire discussion.

So let's get started, shall we? Hey, it's time for another Scoutmaster panel discussion. Joining us on this edition of the Scoutmaster panel discussion. We've got Larry Geiger down there in Vieira, Florida, Hi, Larry. Good evening Clark. And Tom Gillard is in Tallahoma, Tennessee.

What's your say, Tom? Hi Clark And Walter. Our buddy Walter, is off to Hawaii for some reason or another.

Was it a business trip or something? No, I think it was a vacation, wasn't it? Walter's always on vacation.

We have. He suggested somebody, since we're talking about the OA this evening. He suggested his brother-in-law, T W Cook, and T W Cook is down there in Georgetown, Texas. Welcome to the Scoutmaster podcast and to the panel discussion. It's great to have you. Thanks for taking the time.

Thanks, Glad to be here. Let me give my best attempt at an order of the arrow history, because it started kind of close by to where I am right now. I'm in Southeast Pennsylvania and the order of the arrow was founded on Treasure Island, which is an island in the Delaware River, at the camp, the scout camp there, and it was founded in the late 20s by E Erner Goodman and a couple of his buddies. They came up with an honor camping scheme and organization that they started there at Treasure Island. It eventually spread all over the country. It uses Native American lore as kind of an organizing principle and it spread all over the country to many different councils T, W.

Do you have any idea? What's a ballpark figure on the number of lodges there are now?

Do you have any idea? Goodness, it's hard to figure out because they've consolidated so many, as councils have merged.

There can be only one lodge per council, so the number is quite a bit less than it used to be back when we had a lot of really small councils around. Certainly there must be you know what.

150 or so, Yeah, I would guess at least. Well, there's 300 councils, 290.

So there's. Is that the current number? That sounds about right.

So is that many lodges officially? Well, you don't. I don't know that they all have to have a lodge, but I suspect most of them do. Some folks in the Midwest would be familiar with Mikisei, which is an OA-like organization.

I think there's a lot of parallels between the two, although I'm not an expert on Mikisei. And I think there's another organization called Firecrafters. That's correct. Yeah, and those. I'm not quite sure what the geographic spread of those is. Yeah, I mean, I hear about them from time to time and I know they're similar to the order of the arrow.

So a lot of the broader concepts we'll discuss hopefully we'll apply to those TW. Let me ask you this: Just give us a little background about your involvement in the order of the arrow. I was elected as an adult.

I was, My two sons were Boy Scouts- They've now both aged out- and I was a Scoutmaster and was elected. So I went through the whole OA thing as an adult. I've been in the fall for something like 10 years, including being a vigilante member of the OA.

So I've done quite a bit of stuff. A lot of it is a Scoutmaster, but also some of it as a leading work, cruise in the lodge and things like that Coach the ceremony team for a while. Oh, you and Tom have something in common there. That's good.

Now you said vigilante. What's a vigilante?

What does that mean? Well, there's sort of three kinds of membership in order of the arrow. You can be an ordeal member, which is basically anyone who's in the organization. There's no really special privileges. But if you're serious about it and want to continue to be involved after you've been in for a year, you can go on to become a brotherhood member, which is open to anyone that is in the order of the arrow that chooses to be. Beyond that, a lodge can select a small number of people each year to become vigilante members.

It's just a recognition really, for service, not necessarily in the lodge, but in scouts. The rules are that you have to select at least as many youth as you do adults, so you can't just pack it with adults. And the actual selection of who gets honored is the voting is youth members only.

So the adults that get in are the ones that are recognized by the youth in their lodge as being useful in some way. Now, how does a scout become a member of the order of the arrow?

Well, they get elected by the members of their troop. There's some basic eligibility criteria: You have to have a certain number of days of camping. You have to be a first class scout. You have to have attended a long-term camp like a summer camp. Once you become eligible, each troop can have an election once each year. It's a little unique in that the whole troop gets to vote, not just OA members.

So membership is not determined by the membership but instead by the broader body of scouting And the idea is that it's supposed to be an honor camper kind of a thing where they're supposed to vote for those who they believe are good scouts and deserving of it And if they're elected then they have a year to complete the ordeal, which is basically a kind of a weekend induction. After that they're actually members. Until then they're just candidates And that's the induction weekend. That's an ordeal weekend. I hear that term used a lot, Correct.

Well, different lodges call it different things, but that's sort of the generic term. So ours we call it the spring or the fall assembly. It's the official name of the event, But what it is is the ordeal weekend or the weekend at which they complete the ordeal. And Larry, you were made a lodge member as a youth in scouting. Yes, I was elected at about 15 or 16, but I wasn't a brotherhood member until an adult.

And what about you, Tom? Same thing. I was elected as a youth And when my sons got involved in scouting I learned more. I got re-involved with everything and did the brotherhood ceremony. My boys got involved with the ceremonies team. I was helping them with the ceremonies teams And in that process they elected me into the vigilante through the lodge.

So ceremonies have a big. They're a big part of the order there, aren't they? Yes, And very much so.

What function do they have? They tell the story of the OA. They tell the story of the Delaware Indians. They have all the symbolisms that the OA represents And they're pretty cool to watch when you can stand back and watch them and know what's going on. They're sort of a very unique aspect of Boy Scouts.

I was inducted into the order as an adult, like you, TW, And I was a scoutmaster at the time And so we have a little bit of a different story than Tom and Larry do. But what I often hear is some scoutmasters and scout leaders are a little concerned about the order of the arrow, kind of sapping the attention of their older scouts away from working with the troop and things like that.

Has that been your experience? No, it really hasn't. In fact it's, if anything, gone the other way. But that really depends on the attitude of the scoutmaster and the troop. We chose in our troop to embrace the OA as another set of activities for interested scouts. We tried to support OA, make sure that we didn't schedule troop campouts in conflict with OA events.

We provided transportation to OA assemblies, just like we did to troop campouts and stuff, And as a result, really I think it strengthened us and kept some of our older boys engaged. Certainly some of them decided it was cool to go out and assist with assemblies and spend a few extra nights camping as a result.

So the other thing that I think is overlooked a lot is boys are youths in the OA until they turn 21.. One of the things that makes Boy Scouting work is the older scout role model- a younger scout being able to look up to an older scout that he wants to be like. And you reach a point where you run out of that in the troop because the older boys are the older boys. They don't have anyone to look up to And yet sometimes they can find that in the OA.

Certainly that was the case, for both of my sons Ended up really adopting role models that were guys that they knew in the lodge that were competent older scouts that were a couple of years older than them when they were the older boys in the troop, And I think that's a strength that troops can get from it. That is often overlooked.

Tom and Larry- kind of the same question As Scoutmasters, were you concerned about that type of thing And what was the ultimate result of watching your boys get involved with the OA? As Scoutmaster I did very much like TW does.

I put on the calendar when the OA events are, so we don't. When they do their planning they don't overwrite something that is an OA weekend And I use the OA in the troop as the service arm of the troop or for the district. Sometimes We may be called upon to do something. I get to let the OA rep know and he gets his guys together and off they go.

So it's a. It functions pretty well. I've never- I've always- supported the ordeal, but I haven't really supported the other activities as much as a Scoutmaster. I've kind of left that to the guys in the troop to decide what they want to do. My experience has been sometimes that the OA and the district have a tendency to pull adults out, and not regularly or often, but occasionally, And I don't know that that's always bad.

Our troop, the guys, are always free to go to the local log chapter meetings, you know, go to lodge events, but I haven't had a lot of guys for whatever reason I guess, just haven't done that. Well, one of the interesting things about a scout that gets involved in the order of the arrow, he pretty much does it on his terms. He doesn't have to go as part of a troop or patrol to participate. He's basically he's doing this pretty much individually, wouldn't you say- In my case, yes, Yeah, ours too pretty much.

Has that been your experience, TW, that the boys are more or less doing this on their own terms? Yeah, absolutely, It's optional, It's something that they can do to the extent they want. Some of them will go through their ordeal and never go back because it didn't click.

Some of them will decide it's the greatest thing ever and they'll want to do everything and you know, must them or somewhere in between. One of the other things: I think that really works. We talked a minute ago about ceremonies.

Ceremonies in OA really try to restate the values that we have in scouting around- leadership and self-reliance and stuff. And I've seen a few cases where there was a boy that kind of wasn't getting it in the troop context and somehow hearing it from a different direction kind of worked for him and engaged him.

So the other thing I liked about it as a Scoutmaster: it was a way of kind of restating the stuff that we've been trying to get through to them from a different perspective And sometimes when you hear it from a different direction it kind of sinks in better. Yeah, I've always seen it as a very positive thing for our scouts. They get involved. They get involved at the level that they want to. I've had scouts involved on the OA Executive Committee and who have been officers in the lodge And I guess some of this we're kind of running over some of these terms.

But how has a lodge constituted? TW, How does that work? Talk to me about officers and things like that for a moment.

Well, the lodge is basically the council level unit of the OA. If you will just like in a troop, There's a youth and an adult staff.

You have a lodge advisor, who's the adult leader, that's kind of responsible for keeping them out of trouble and stuff, And then you have an elected lodge chief, who's the senior youth leader, who then has a set of vice chiefs for various functions like service. In our lodge at least, those are annually elected, annually at the spring assembly And I think that's pretty typical.

And then they run a- we call it a lodge executive committee. Those youth officers run monthly meetings or so to try to keep things going And, like in any other scouting thing, they're the ones that are supposed to be running the lodge and running the events. The adults provide some continuity and some reminders about the stuff they need to get done.

But generally it works pretty well And one of the advantages the OA has is that the youth can still be youth until they turn 21.. So some of the boys that have aged out of their troop but still want to have a leadership role can find something to do there And they're old enough to actually be pretty good at it.

So a lot of times that works pretty well. I agree with TW: The older scouts: once they turn 18 and continue on, they do excel. They understand what's supposed to be happening and they make it happen pretty much. It's pretty amazing to watch. Years and years ago everything about the ceremonies and the different things about the lodge were kind of considered to be a secret. Just in the way of openness and youth protection.

Those things were no longer considered to be closely guarded secrets. If a parent or a leader or somebody is concerned about what's going on at an OA weekend, I mean we do call it in some places an ordeal weekend and that's kind of caught the attention of a couple of parents over the years with my troop and they've wondered what exactly that means Or if they're interested in what the content of the ceremonies or something like that is.

The proceedings of the order they are are no longer secret, are they, I think, for adults? As far as I'm concerned, if you want to see what's going on, I think that's the scouting way now.

Now for scouts, there aren't any secrets, There's only surprises. We asked the scouts that are ordeal members not to just blab around. It's not a secret exactly, but we don't lay it out for them like we lay out some other campouts or things. We just kind of keep it. It's guarded, Yeah, It's just a guarded knowledge. We tend to have a couple of different reactions.

If a parent wants to go look, First of all we try to explain to them what's going on and make, help them understand that their kid's not going to be in trouble or anything. But if it's an adult that is involved as a leader and that might someday themselves go through it, we try to encourage them not to do it and save it- Surprise was the word used- and let it unfold when they get to go through it. If it's really a parent that's not very involved, probably not ever going to be into NOA, and they really want to go watch, that's okay. But at the same time this is kind of a getting older scout thing And it's one of those things that really he doesn't need mom's help for And mom certainly has the right to go and watch mom or dad if they want. But at the same time the boy really deserves the chance to do this on his own if that's what he wants, And I usually- I've been through a couple of times when I kind of tried to interpret that for a parent. I would never prevent a parent that wanted to go and you can't.

BSA has no secret organizations and Youth Protection says the parent has the right to be there. But I would try to explain to them why maybe they don't want to be there and maybe it's not for the best if they're there And if at the end of that they feel like they got to go, that's fine. I've had parents question what's in the ceremony and what kind of wording and stuff like that. I just show them the ceremony book and let them read the parts and see what's in it. Yeah, if you look at the ordeal ceremony, it's really surprising to some people how much it's based on the scout oath and the scout law, if you pay attention.

Right, Very much so, And I think that's a good strategy for a parent that wants to understand what they're being told and what's involved. I've also had- we had a troop in town that the church they were chartered to had concerns about it being some kind of weird Indian religious thing And helping them.

First of all, all the major churches have signed off on this so years ago. But second of all, having them read the ceremony and look at what they actually say And they find it's very consistent with scouting values And it kind of defused that whole thing. That's cool. Yeah, I've never had anything like that from up above. That's pretty cool.

Sometimes a new scout leader or a new Scoutmaster will be faced with somebody saying: you know it's time for you to have your OA election. TW, have you been a part of running those elections in the past? You certainly have had them conducted for you at a scout meeting. Sure, I've actually helped from the chapter side run elections and other troops as well. What's my role as a Scoutmaster in an OA election.

Beyond basic eligibility, the Scoutmaster is supposed to give sort of a scout spirit: sign off So you could, if you chose, eliminate. If you had a kid with a really bad attitude or some issue, you could keep them off the ballot. My experience is that's probably a bad idea because the kids that are going to vote understand just fine what they need to do and that that's not the right person to elect.

So I have never done that myself. What about you, Tom or Larry?

Has that ever been an issue for you? Generally, the Scoutmaster should look at the guys that are eligible by number of days, camping and first class and whatnot, and just sign them off. But other than that, leave it to the boys.

I do specifically ask the candidates that are going to be elected: Do they want to go into the to be elected? That's a good point. If they don't have any want to do that, there's no need in having them on the ballot anyway.

So I just make sure that they understand that they are getting ready to go through the election process. That's a good point. They certainly don't have to be on the ballot if they don't want to. I've had a couple that not many, but a couple through the years that didn't want to.

The other thing I discovered about elections is that in any kind of a large troop, as in a troop with two or more patrols, the boys have no idea what the names of half the people in the troop are. One of the things that we started doing years ago now- based on, I think I got the idea from Calvin Gray- is having a photo ballot. They know the other boys, they have an impression of their behavior and what good scouts they are, but they don't know the names of the kids that are not in their patrol necessarily, And we've started having much better election results when they could actually look at the picture of who they're voting for, rather than trying to remember some kid's name- who out of 30 or 40 kids. They can't keep the names all straight.

So I think that's really helped the quality of our OA elections. We've gone and had the candidates sit across the front of the gym. These are the ones, these are who you're going to be voting on, But we don't.

You know, that's as far as we go on that. That's a pretty good idea, though We used to do the same thing. We'd have them line up there.

We'd have their names written on the board and still it's just hard for them to keep them straight And this way they can associate their vote directly with you know, knowing exactly who they're voting or not voting for. Ever since we've done that, I've the kids that get elected are the ones that are. We get a pretty decent number of kids elected, but they're the right kids.

TW, thank you so much for spending the time with us. We really do appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. I've enjoyed it. Yeah, And we'll look forward maybe to having you back someday when Walter is on vacation again. Aloha, Walter, If you're listening in, But thanks again, TW.

All right, catch you later. Good night, TW, See you. See you later.

So we're going to welcome Blaise, Vitale and Blaise, where are you from? Currently from Grantsford, Wisconsin, Grantsford, Wisconsin, And you're a Scoutmaster.

Yes, And what's your troop number there? 560..

560 is a brand new troop of guys who were Weebelos a year or so ago. Is that right? Half of the troop was Weebelos and half of the troop was not scouts. Oh, okay.

Okay, I've got a first year troop and I've been trying to teach them lashings. We were supposed to make a sled for our district's contact derby, and I figured that was a perfect opportunity to do this.

The scouts made a few attempts and then gradually all abandoned the sled to go back, go play a game, and then the sled was left unfinished. I was torn at that point between just letting the scouts fail and possibly canceling the derby. But with a young troop, I really tried to give them the opportunities to succeed because, in fairness, the leaders weren't really prepared.

I called another meeting, essentially bribed my scouts with pizza if they came and worked on the sled, But I don't know, did I overstep letting the boys run the show? I'm trying to develop this boy-led troop, but I often feel like I'm running the whole show and my boys aren't really stepping up.

Well, how many boys all together Blaze? At that point I only had eight scouts and six of them were there that night And most of them are 11 or 12 years old. Yes, And it's a brand new troop.

Well, we're almost a year old, Almost a year old, but still kind of brand new. Okay, so that gives us a little background to deal with the question.

And is this your first experience as a leader in scouting? Well, I was a Webelos leader, but yes, and I was not a scout myself, so the lashings were alien to me.

So I think my guess is that the three of us have been there before and we're going to do our best to get you through the situation here a little bit. Who'd like to start?

Well, Blaze, did you have an annual planning conference? Not for this past year, We're going to be having one very soon. I can't get that. My boys are very excited about doing that kind of stuff. If they make the annual plan and they put the Klondike Derby in there, that starts the process of it being theirs.

If you made this plan and said, well, the district's having this and our troops going to go, then it's not theirs And for whatever reason, they decided not to get behind that without you pushing them, Although at the same point, I've also heard that we're supposed to be looking for whatever initiative they're showing. Last year we went as Webelos to this same event and they definitely said they wanted to go again.

So I'm using whatever spark of initiative they wanted to go to this And to do that. This instead of borrowing, is that we had to make one Right?

Well, that's fine, I mean, but somewhere along the way they start deciding what they want to do and they start getting excited about their program. Where you want to be is where they are saying, hey, that's where we want to go, That's what we want to do. But it's not just your troop. We've been a stout master for 18 years. The troop is 18 years old Right now. We've got 32 boys.

In December, there was a planning conference and they were going to go skiing this weekend, but there's no snow around here this year, So they decided to go to the winter campery, the district campery, which was also scheduled for this weekend. Two weeks ago. They had not even talked about it. It was still. They had the, they had the fliers, but they had not even talked about it, And it was driving me crazy. They did start talking about it this past Monday.

There was more planning, permission slips were taken up And and we were taken 15, 15 scouts to the campery this weekend. So they did it. We don't know what's. I don't know what's going to happen once, for there. There may be a four hour breakfast, but we are going.

So it they. I was sitting back and the other adults were sitting back waiting for them to do something about it, And they finally did.

How much did it take to keep you in your seat on that? Quite a bit of rope, Quite a bit of duct tape. And listen to Mr Geiger and Mr Green. What you're talking about, Blaze, is, is a familiar story. It's very familiar.

Let me ask you, Tom and Larry- these guys are 11 or 12 years old- What's the factor there? Well, they're not as interested in planning And you're going to, and you're going to be frustrated by that, And that's OK. You can make suggestions about some places to go and some things to do, But it still comes down to them deciding to some extent what they really want to do And when they get there, what they want to do when they get there.

You know Tom's kind of. You know, wait until this weekend, Blazer, are these guys on their way to first class? Yet My high ethical scout is only second class. You and your leaders are still doing some of the first day, not tying that kind of thing. Yes, it's, I'm doing a lot of it.

Are you turning over the camp stoves to them, The cooking? Have they been shopping on their own?

Have their patrols been shopping? The patrols haven't been shopping. We're only a single patrol unit.

We have been letting individual scouts, particularly as they're working on second class requirements. I've been letting them do the shopping. Yeah, One thing you might try is send the whole patrol to the grocery store together and let them shop together, Even if one guy's in charge. Let them work through that as a patrol.

I've always had my patrols go shopping together And they go to the grocery store and they shop and then during the camp out then they cook their meals. You know, someday you can spend about 80% of a day just making meals, But that's the level that they're at, But they end up doing it themselves.

Blazer, is this useful for you? It is actually.

But again, at the same point, I just let the boys just do ramen noodles, Because that could very well happen, because that's just easy for them. There's only one or two of them that want to spend a lot of time cooking.

Yeah, well, that's where you push them a little bit to raise the level. When you can Encourage the patrol leader. And in your young group, can you start seeing one of the scouts that is more handy with first aid or maybe with the knots, Or can you start recognizing some of those that with a little encouragement they may can take it a little further, because they all have to do the edge method at some point. Get them zeroing in on a specific skill, like the cooking guys, the ones that really like to cook. Get them teaching first-class cooking. We're getting ready to accept Webelos into the troop And I'm not sure how much they're.

I keep telling them the boys are going to have to do the teaching and they don't seem to be very interested in that. They just want to have fun. Let me push back at you a little bit, Tom and Larry, because we are talking about some 11 and 12-year-old boys. One of the messages that we often hear is they have to make a determination. They get to do what they want to do.

Well, what the 11 and 12-year-old boys seem to want to do is they want to play basketball, or they want to play Chase Me or something like that. They don't seem to want to do this scouting business very much, or at least what we would like to have them do in it.

How do you work that? Well, I think Larry said it- You just keep coaching them in the right direction.

Well, basketball is not scouting. I mean, there's nothing wrong with a scout troop playing basketball occasionally, and you just have to kind of get right down there with the patrol leader and laying it out for them. This is kind of where I'm going and where we're going. They need to kind of latch on to that. Yeah, you got a little bit of a challenge. The guys aren't really stepping up.

When we did have the extra meeting, the pizza worked beautifully. The boys sort of.

I think they were a little sheepish that they hadn't really gotten the sled done. But the next meeting they learned how to do their parts. The leaders were ready, but the boys came prepared to get the sled finished because they knew there was a deadline and we actually just used the sled this past weekend and it held together And I was happy with that.

Well, yeah, you're there. I mean, you got a little bit of it and food is always good. Larry's a feeder. I feed them all the time. The adults may be more involved as the coach and getting them to understand what's going on.

But don't just give it to the scouts and then let them continue on with it. But you're always real close to them, coaching them so that they still understand, because they don't understand what's supposed to happen yet You may want to start introducing some challenges.

Have you been backpacking yet? We've talked about it.

Okay, Several of the boys actually used Clarke Green's list for Christmas and several of the boys did get backpacks. Okay, well, backpacking, canoeing, there's those challenges. I mean Clark, he goes to Switzerland, goes to Canada and I don't even go there.

But if you can get them pointed to now that they're getting some basic skills, kind of the idea of taking on a slightly bigger challenge- I've often wondered if it would be a good idea to say, okay, how do you go from here to the next town over? Tell me how you do that and let them describe that, Because a lot of times they just don't know how to get out of town.

So, how are they going to go to Fillmont or go to? Let's get out of town first and see if they can figure that one out, But practice with small steps and then keep moving up to the bigger steps.

How are you getting on with the guys? I mean, you're the Scoutmaster, right?

Yes, And when you in the evenings, when you sit down after dinner, who makes the campfire? The boys do Okay, and then the whole troupe, the boys and you guys, you adults, sit around and talk and tell stories, And usually just the adults. The kids are usually off doing flashlight tag- And I just finished, they don't want to. Our boys just want to go off and have a flashlight tag or go to the graveyard or something like that. But I'm going to have to try to push that a little bit in that direction. Also.

Let me jump in for a second. I think a lot of times what we're really far away from- and what I'm saying- so I'm talking about Larry and Tom and I are far away from- is being in that position where you have a group of guys who are 11 or 12 years old. We're dealing with a couple of things that Blaze is not dealing with. First of all, we're dealing with some older scouts, And that's a big deal, And we're also dealing with units that have been around for a long time and have a lot of things that are kind of on autopilot.

I think one of the important things for us to think about- and I think that would be helpful for you too, Blaze- is the kind of scale that you're dealing with When you're talking about a guy who's 11 or 12 years old and you're just forming a troop and everything, which is really exciting, by the way What you would like to see them pay attention to, instead of being at 15 or 20 minutes or an hour or whatever. They're going to pay attention to that for about five minutes And then they need to run off about 40 minutes worth of steam And then you got another five minutes.

I mean, does that make sense? That makes a lot more sense And I know I've been mostly trying to emphasize that the boys are having fun and let them do what they can do. I've been really happy that within the past month all eight boys have done something or so.

So none of my boys, they're all staying active And when we've got a bunch of Webelos that are going to be interested in coming over. So I think I'm doing what I can, But at the same point, I think it's somewhat a weeble of three program because I don't have any older boys.

Well, that's okay if they're sticking with it. That's a good plan And you're moving forward, but it's going to be in smaller increments than you would like. Yes, That is aggravating. Yeah, but don't stop. Don't stop looking forward.

Don't institutionalize where you're at now, Because a year and a half from now you're not going to be there anymore If these eight guys stick with it and take these new Webelos on a year, a year and a half from now, you're going to be a scout troop. I mean you're going to be there If you just stick with the plan. That's my goal. We're looking at this from a really different perspective. People who have a smaller troop or a younger troop.

I think the broad underlying concepts work, but sometimes the application isn't as simple as we would like to think it is. It's a much longer process, Much smaller steps. Yeah, I don't know, Blaze.

Sometimes you just have to kind of have faith that the program works, Just keep hanging in there, because you know we don't like calling it a failure anymore. You know a bad PLC meeting or we didn't get our Condyke Derby sled quite done, or whatever. But they're not really failures if they learn something from it and if they become motivated the next time.

There's nothing like a failure quote to actually organize a bunch of kids' heads and getting straightened out, And I'm thinking at this point now is the time I've got to push them a little. The other advantage that we have on you is that we've seen this work before and you really haven't seen it work yet.

Yeah, That, and hopefully we can share the encouragement with you that, oh yeah, it will generally work. You don't think it will Correct.

I mean, Tom's been sitting around on pins and needles for the past two weeks wondering if he's going to get to go skiing or go to the- what is it? The Camperie, Camperie, yeah, Yeah, get to it. There is an element of faith to it all, especially in the circumstance where you have absolutely no evidence that anything you're doing is working very well. There will be, like these little watershed events that happen and you've got a bunch of guys interested in the troop right now.

Right, Well, right now I'm eight, I'm going to for sure. I've got 12, and I'm hoping to get maybe 16 or so.

Yeah, well, I'll tell you if the boys are having a great time. You know it's going to go like gangbusters.

You know, Blaise, I think the secret is around. What Clark was saying is that you're going to reap the reward by sticking through this.

You know, when one of those guys is 14,, 15,, 16, and you hand his eagle badge to his mom to pin on him, or you're sitting there at a camp out and he's six feet tall and he walks over to some 11-year-old kid that's. You know, not even as far along as the guys you've got- and sits down next to him, pulls out a scout book and starts going through stuff- and you didn't say a word to either one of them.

Or you know, I could go through a thousand examples like that- and you're going to be sitting there across camp in your chair thinking to yourself: this is working. You know what Clark said just a second ago: this thing is working, This thing is happening and I am watching it. And yeah, it was a pain and I was tied up in knots occasionally about it, but when I saw the opportunity to back off and let go and give it to them and they took it, it happened And at that moment you'll know, you will know that you're there and you've seen it and from there you can't go back.

You know, even if you start over with another eight Webelos, it'll be so ingrained in your mind. I'm seeing glimmers, certainly, but it's sort of like having a meeting where I think everything's going great and then a meeting where everything it seems like it's a lousy meeting. I have those all the time. Yeah, you've been visiting me. One thing I'll say over and over again: don't ever back off from letting them know that it's their job to lead, train and inspire those new Webelos. And even if they're only second class and they're barely 12, don't back off from that.

You know that's their job: to bring those guys along. Just keep going at that, as strong as you can, taking care of those little guys. All the other stuff will take care of itself, both in the law, the program. It'll all take care of itself.

Well, they've told me they're not too excited, but actually we had three scouts come from another neighboring town whose troop isn't doing very well either. But the three boys that came along were incorporated right into the activities in this past week.

But when they say, hey, those little guys- and they're not, you know, just tell them: guys, it's change And your boys? You don't like change And I know you're a little uncomfortable with it, but it will be the best thing that you can do for this scout troop.

Well, there's also a grand scouting tradition in older scouts complaining about the younger scouts. That's just, It's a tradition. It is a hallowed tradition, Larry, A hallowed tradition. Yes, It sounds like Blaise is. He's on the right trail. You're on the right trail.

You can't focus too much on one particular. You can't snapshot it. You've got to look at the broad picture and see that it really is. You're going in the right direction.

Yeah, I think we all agree about that. Keep doing the right things and the results will hit there.

As I say, I think I'm doing what I should be doing, but at the same point, you always have these, You always have to. I think you always have to second guess yourself. I would be more concerned if you weren't having doubts and concerns about things, especially since this is the first time through this. That's to me as an indication of somebody who's a decent leader. That always is an indication. I just try And we all do.

That's what we're all doing. Is your boy in there, Blaise?

Yes, And that's the other thing. You're always torn between how much you push him Right. That's another subject. I tell you when you drop your son off at college and he comes home a few months later and he goes.

You know, Dan, when you drop me off, the other guys on the floor, they didn't have any clue. They didn't know how to find a campus map, They didn't know how to get registered, They didn't know what their classes were, And that's the truth, You know. And after about three days. That first week before school started, I was kind of in charge of the floor And I was helping the RA get things organized And my son's an Eagle Scout and he's kind of like that.

But you know your son's going to come back and tell you. You know, I learned all that stuff when I was 12..

Well, I had exactly the same experience with our son. I really appreciate you spending the time with us. Thanks for being here, Blaise, No problem.

Well, gentlemen, thanks very much for joining me. Tom down there in Tahoe, home of Tennessee, we'll talk to you again soon. All right, good night, Clark And Larry. Larry is down there in Florida.

What's the temperature in Florida right now, Larry? About 72. Wow, All right, Whatever, 58 here. It's good to have you again, Larry. Thanks, We'll talk again soon. You're welcome, Clark.