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I am not a scientist, so tell me if this makes sense.
There are about 40,000 Scout troops in the B.S.A., they go camping (this is a very conservative average) of six weekends a year.
40k * 6= 240K weekends
I’d guess, conservatively, that two-thirds of these troops own stoves or lanterns that use disposable gas canisters or disposable propane cylinders.
60% of 240K = 144k weekends
The average troop has 20 Scouts. I know that my troop of 30 Scouts would use a minimum of three disposable propane cylinders on an average weekend (we have battery lanterns).
144k *3= 432K disposable propane cylinders.
That’s a lot of very expensive, high-impact, garbage.
The ubiquitous 1 lb propane cylinder cannot be safely refilled, nor legally transported if refilled (see information from Coleman here PDF file). If emptied properly they can be disposed of with household trash, but, if not, they are usually treated as hazardous waste. Coleman also reports that programs accepting cylinders for recycling are few and far between.
Disposing of these cylinders are also a growing problem for parks and wilderness areas.
I think we ought to seriously cut back on using these cylinders as a measure of lessening our overall environmental impact. There are practical, more efficient alternatives to disposable gas canisters and open campfires. We use the Littlbug stove, Solo Stove, and StoveTec wood stoves.
High-efficiency wood stoves are better than open campfires and have considerably less environmental impact than gas stoves. We still use propane and gas stoves in some situations where wood stoves are impractical or impossible to use (during fire bans, or in camping situations where they are not allowed) but we have moved to cooking over wood for at least 2/3rds of our camping trips.
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Our troop primarily uses refillable propane for cooking for campsite outings. The main summer camp that is in our council does not have a dining facilty. They provide charcoal at the begining of the week along with food. Getting the fires going and finishing meals on time the first couple meals can be a challenge but the boys pick it up quickly. The “stoves” consist of a metal frame with expanded metal grating at two levels. The fire is built on the lower level inside a large metal can with both ends removed. The can serves as a chimney and keeps the fire localized under the pan or pot above. No lighter fluid is allowed and the charcoal is not the “Match Light” variety. The boys have to gather tinder and kindling to get the charcoal going before each meal and use the same fire to heat water for dishes.
By the end of the week most of the boys get pretty good at starting the fires. If our summer camp is scheduled later in the summer the woods can be picked pretty clean of tinder and kindling. I thought I would throw my two cents in since I did not see too many comments regarding charcoal. I did find a couple comments on the web about testing charcoal in a Solo Stove but the results I saw were not that positive.
In the past we would have been considered a Trailer Troop but over the past couple years we have incorporated backpacking trips and day hikes so we can leave the trailer behind. We normally have one or two cannister stoves available on backpack outings but the boys usually bring cold food or or like on the last trip they brought MREs (which generate significant trash). It is great to have the trailer option but it has downsides also. I have a few boys interested in going to a camporee and leaving the trailer at home so we can travel fast and light but it may be a harder sell to the adult scouters who spend more time at camp.
Clarke, though you are not a scientist, you are using “Fermi estimation”, named after the physicist Enrico Fermi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problem).
The key to accuracy is to document your assumptions and to use as few as you can, preferring facts when you can get them. For example, if we had the youth membership of Boy Scouting (a fact) and a BSA survey about how many days each Scout camps (a fact), then we would only need to estimate how much propane is used per boy-day of camping. That might be a shorter chain of estimates that you used.
Thanks Walter! I know that the number of troops and their average size are factual, everything else is conjecture. Glad to be in the same camp, or at least in the same reservation as Fermi.
I like the idea of cheap or free fuel sources. Wood is a renewable source for sure. However, if you backpack in a lot of State or National parks, they don’t even want you touching the dead fall. Liquid fuel stoves have a pretty big explosion and fire potential. Cannister stoves are easy to pack and can be recycled when done, especially if you puncture the cannisters. The one pound coleman tanks are a complete waste of money anyhow. Use the big tanks for everything when car/trailer camping. Taking big coleman stoves and one pound tanks in a backpack is too much weight. It seems that we all agree to disagree on this topic. We also need to remember that each part of the world has different requirements and what work here, may not work there.
Good converstation though.
Thanks Jason – yes a good conversation! Like just about everything else there are local considerations.
Our troop uses the iso-butane canisters for our stoves. These work for backpacking or car camping. You can make them ready for recycling by poking a hole in them. The can opener blade on a Scout knife is perfect for that.
I’ve thought on and off about a backpacking wood stove. Sure would be dirty in the pack, but they seem to work very well. And maybe the guys would learn the right size for a cooking fire.
“But the other side of this is to make sure that you do not go crazy buying expensive gear.” Where is the fun in that? 🙂 🙂 Anyone up for a trip to REI, Gander Mtn, BassPro or Cabela’s?
The trick is to train the boys in multiple methods of cooking. By the time they are First Class, our boys have cooked on a coleman stove with gas (the great pancake challenge), a light weight stove with liquid fuel (backpacking meals), a small fire (Wilderness Iron Chef), and dutch oven (dump cake anyone). It helps to have a variety of camp out types (backpacking, car camp, winter camp, canoe excursion, bike-hike, historic trail, etc) and each has different logistical requirements. But the other side of this is to make sure that you do not go crazy buying expensive gear.
“That’s a lot of very expensive, high-impact, garbage.”
Actually, not really. That’s a lot of expensive garbage. High-impact, not so much. It’s just steel, or iron. The problem is not the container, which is very recyclable but the potential contents. Little bombs when compressed or melted down if they still contain fuel.
These are, indeed, high-impact garbage when compared to the alternative of using wood. Also note that according to Coleman, who manufactures these cylinders, very few places accept them for recycling because they have to be emptied completely. Parks Ontario spends $2.50 each to dispose of gas canisters that they find in their trash.
Clarke, what are your thoughts on alcohol stoves like the Trangia or sodacan stoves? I took my new Trangia for a spin this weekend and it did all the work I wanted it to do. Firewood is not something we can count on finding on a trail here in South Africa, and when hiking in nature reserves, it’s illegal to collect timber.
I like the Trangia and soda can stoves personally but the B.S.A. has recently (and wisely in my opinion) prohibited the use of any home-made gear that uses liquid fuels and recommends against alcohol as a fuel in that it burns invisibly.
Several years ago we made and used soda can stoves and one of my Scouts tried to fill his stove while it was still burning (he couldn’t see the flame). The result was a minor explosion, a burning shirt and a small patch of third degree burn on his abdomen.
Properly used I have no problem with alcohol as a fuel and at least one of my Scouts has a Trangia stove. I make sure that they understand to confirm the flame is completely out before getting their fuel bottle anywhere close to the stove and to use a small cup or something similar to fill the stove, never the fuel bottle.
I’d point out again that these wood stoves use an amazingly small amount of fuel – if you are completely prohibited from collecting any wood that would be a problem though.
No lanterns in our troop. Each Scout has a flashlight. We have our evening campfires. We generally get up when the sun comes up and go to bed pretty soon after the sun goes down (except maybe when days are really short, like January). We generally purchase our wood in small bundles from the front porch of our local grocery store (Publix) and bring it along.
No lanterns, and no s’mores. Those are for Girl Scouts.
We use 5lb refillable tanks for car camping. If we were to backpack, we would not use 1lb throw a ways.
We do carry the propane canisters backpacking (the Scouts cook as patrols, of course so the weight of food and cooking gear is divided between several) but we’ll be testing the Solo Stove a bit more and we may use it instead.
Our troop also often “Car Camps” We teach general tasks Cooking, Dutch Oven Cooking, Pioneering, general Scout Skills in local areas that are easy to access by car. Its a Minimum of 3 hours to a site we need to pack in as we are East-Coast subarban troop. We teach lightweight cooking, weight management, equipment evaluation on more advanced backpacking trips. Deadwood in our normal camping areas cna be scarce as they are shared by many troops… all of who love campfires. Do you have info on how you equip your patrols in a manner to support your instruction, sanitation and patrol method? I am always anxious to learn somthing new!
One of the real benefits of high-inefficiency wood stoves is they burn less wood. I can cook a meal for several people with about 1/10th the wood required for an open campfire.
As for equipping patrols- we are pretty simple. Our patrol boxes have cooking gear, washbasins, lanterns and a tarp. I am not sure if that answers your question or not. Let me know!
While I typically enjoy the though provoking articles, they seemed to have taken on a commercial nature recently…perhaps through innocence…perhaps through investment… There are valid discussions for wood vs white gas vs propane. And..there is no correct answer. Each Troop/Crew will have to find what fits them best. Our Troop typically uses stoves and lanterns running unleaded gasoline (cheaper, less temperamental, and more efficient than white gas as well as readily available). Not putting much in the waste stream either. If you are using disposable propane cylinders, please make sure they are being properly recycled (not thrown in trash). While the original post brought on the concern of all the resources involved in producing the evil propane cylinder and the potential environmental impact , it struck me as odd that said Troop uses battery powered lanterns….
Propane cylinders can’t be recycled in most places (according to Coleman).
I don’t believe propane cylinders are inherently evil, far from it. They are a good choice at times but I think it’s something we can successfully reduce.
We use LED battery lanterns that use four ‘D’ sized batteries and these batteries are replaced perhaps twice in a years time, so they probably cause less impact than a propane lantern overall, but probably no more. One of our goals in using them was they cost less to maintain than the propane lanterns (no mantles, no canisters) and they do not put off heat.
You certainly will notice more posts of a ‘commercial’ nature this time of year as people are interested in ideas for gift giving. The small stream of revenue from affiliate links and advertising helps maintain the blog and podcast. It will probably never amount to too much but it does help justify the many hours I spend provoking thoughts.
Its a matter of determining which produces less pollution – propane or wood. Certainly, wood fires produce both particulate and other pollution. Google: wood fires pollution for millions of hits. Here’s one: http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/woodsmoke/
What I am encouraging people to consider is the embodied energy in extracting the materials, manufacturing the product, delivering propane to you and disposing of the waste it creates. When those considerations are factored in wood has far less overall environmental impact.
I’m with you on that Mr.Green! We need to think about the “WHOLE” process of the item we’re using. The manufacturing of almost “anything” produces much pollution we never even think of! I am for wood burning stoves, when appropriate. Plus, as Scouts we can always make it a point to help plant more trees for our use later down the “path”…
Our troop uses the refillable 30 lb gas bottles you find sold with outdoor grills. We have one of these per patrol. A patrol can hook this bottle up to a Coleman two burner stove and a lantern, which can both be used at the same time. You need a propane tree and the correct hoses and connectors. You need a trailer to carry this gear around, but we do 2/3 of our camping trips hauling a trailer as it is. The only time we can not use this setup is for backpacking. We can use a butane canister just for these infrequent outings. I have recently bought a Sierra Designs wood burning stove, that runs with a fan blowing air into a burning chamber. This only requires a size AA battery. We have also experimented with the burning tablets, but I am not a fan.
I love the chart. I may put that up in the meeting room and start a discussion with the scouts about the subject. Thanks, Clarke.
We looked at the idea of going big – the trailer, the gas bottles and the gear, but it didn’t really appeal to us. No doubt people will give their opinion of ‘trailer troops’ and ‘backpacking troops’ – we are neither and certainly there’s not a universally right way to go. So long as we go camping, that’s the real point.
Our troop has also converted to the 20# bottles. We grew tired of switching out the smaller bottles constantly. You can purchase refillable bottles in much smaller sizes as well (1 gallon and 5#) which eliminates the need for a trailer. The bottle, stove and a box of cooking equipment fits in a minivan or pickup nicely. As for trailer vs. backpack, we do both so we have both sets of equipment.
Transporting propane tanks inside an enclosed vehicle such as a minivan should probably be avoided.
Refillable white gas stoves are our group’s choice (in particular, the MSR Dragonfly).
Many National and Provincial Parks ban fires and wood is generally unavailable above the tree line (either non-existent or inappropriate to be harvested for fires). Plus, we camp all winter in the mountains and getting water melted and boiling is a priority. Trying to do this with wood would be highly inefficient.
Canister stoves can be lit in close quarters since they don’t flare up like white gas stoves. Otherwise, the cost/benefit of white gas stoves far exceeds the cost/benefits of canister stoves for us.
Hello Vancouver!
We don’t have much a tree line on this side of the continent (we are quite pleased with ourselves if we hike to 5000 feet!) – there are certainly situations where liquid fuel and canisters are appropriate.
We arrived at the conclusion that where wood is freely available (which is true of nearly everywhere we camp) it makes more sense than the alternatives. There’s lots of ways to go camping – and I am fine with nearly all of them so long as you go camping!
“There’s lots of ways to go camping – and I am fine with nearly all of them so long as you go camping!”
Right on…totally agree.
Play safe and Be Prepared!
Cheers from Vancouver.