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Are BSA membership policies about to change? No doubt you’ve heard about or read the following statement from the Boy Scouts of America:
Monday, Jan. 28, 2013
Attributable to: Deron Smith, Director of Public Relations“For more than 100 years, Scouting’s focus has been on working together to deliver the nation’s foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training. Scouting has always been in an ongoing dialogue with the Scouting family to determine what is in the best interest of the organization and the young people we serve.
“Currently, the BSA is discussing potentially removing the national membership restriction regarding sexual orientation. This would mean there would no longer be any national policy regarding sexual orientation, and the chartered organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting would accept membership and select leaders consistent with each organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs. BSA members and parents would be able to choose a local unit that best meets the needs of their families.
“The policy change under discussion would allow the religious, civic, or educational organizations that oversee and deliver Scouting to determine how to address this issue. The Boy Scouts would not, under any circumstances, dictate a position to units, members, or parents. Under this proposed policy, the BSA would not require any chartered organization to act in ways inconsistent with that organization’s mission, principles, or religious beliefs.”
We have two points in our history as an organization that are similar; one was racial integration and one was the change in policy that permitted women to become adult leaders in Webelos dens and troops. Both of these changes had a common denominator – they responded to the changing status of racial groups or women in society. The proposed change is in response to the changing status of sexual orientation.
All three changes recognize the difference between chosen behavior and things that are part of the human condition. People don’t choose their racial characteristics, they don’t choose their gender, and they don’t choose their sexual orientation. When we understand that these are not choices people make it becomes unfair to judge that they are incapable of upholding the Scout Oath and Law or being an appropriate example to our Scouts.
Individual Scouters, families and units will differ on the issue of sexual orientation, just as they did when the other changes were implemented.
We understand it is a family’s choice to participate in Scouting. Many have chosen not to have their boys in Scouting because of the ban, some will leave when it is lifted. There’s nothing you and I can do to change that.
Deciding whether or not a unit will welcome people regardless of their sexual orientation is the decision of the organization that charters the unit. Families will then decide if they want to be associated with that unit. We will decide, unit by unit, Scouter by Scouter is whether we can all work together in Scouting after things change.
Some are decrying the plan to devolve this decision to the sponsoring institutions as the B.S.A. abandoning its chartering organizations. I would respond that this is the way it’s always been. At the time of the other changes some units chose not to integrate racially, some chose not to have women as adult leaders. Some units have chosen to turn a blind eye to the sexual orientation of their members and leaders for years, some have chosen to enforce the ban pretty vociferously.
All three changes are going to cause the same reactions; those in favor see them as overdue and welcome, those against see them as this as a loss of standards and the demise of the organization.
All three changes challenge us. I think that’s good. We all ought to be challenged to clarify the way we see the greater issues of equality and ethics from time to time.
I will say that I am deeply disturbed at the characterizations of gay men some cite in opposition to the change. Gay men are not pedophiles, they are not interested in recruiting others to a ” homosexual lifestyle”, they are not trying to take over the organization and did not choose their sexual orientation.
I have worked with many gay people in and outside of Scouting, some of my Scouts have come out as gay, and some of them earned the rank of Eagle.
I can tell you, in one word, the difference between a gay Scout or Scouter and a heterosexual Scout or Scouter; nothing.
Many of the objections that I have read cite religious belief. I will point out that the B.S.A. is, and always has been, strictly non-sectarian and does not specifically define the meaning of ‘Duty to God’. I won’t try to argue theology because Scouting doesn’t.
Each of the changes in membership policy have also resulted in some people deciding they can no longer support or maintain membership in the B.S.A. Naturally I find this upsetting, but each of us decides these things for ourselves.
Our organizational understanding of the oath and law has changed and evolved over the last century and these changes have strengthened and broadened Scouting.
There’s a way of looking at Scouting as a club that we ought to guard from interlopers and the unworthy.
I don’t see Scouting that way.
I see Scouting a an open door for anyone willing to understand and live by the Scout oath and law, to strive with others to create a better world. I hope we open that door wider next week.
UPDATES
1/29 I closed the comments on this post, things were going a bit far afield and the tone was heating up.
1/31 Opened comments again. Thank you in advance for a couple of things:
- You are a guest in my house. Be civil to and respectful of others. Discuss issues, do not attack individuals or groups.
- Don’t monopolize the conversation.
- Stay on topic, at least within reason. And don’t over post.
- I moderate all comments, this is not “censorship”, it’s moderation.
- My house, my rules, my prerogative – the internet is a big place with plenty of opportunities to express your opinion.
If the ban is over turned, then it will destroy Scouting in the South. I have already heard that units that are associated with the Southern Baptist, will be dropped instantly.
I prefer a don’t ask don’t tell.
Enjoy the podcast.
Thanks
Francis
Hi Clark ,liked how you reflected about past changes ,was wondering if you might ask the authors of “the Scouting party” their opinions on how BSA has dealt with change in the past ? and what we might learn to help us in the future .you have shown that we can learn a lot from the past ,b.p. andgreen bar bill , if we use these examples to stick to our core values.as Always y.i.s ., Howie
I am closing comments on this post for now; when the Scouts pick up sticks and start jousting I’ll step in and stop it before it becomes something more that a friendly game, same here! Thanks everyone for maintaining a mostly respectful tone. Feel free to contact me if you’d like to discuss things further.
1) I hope it was not under pressure that this is coming up. If it is what will be the next thing that there is pressure on.
2) As has been said the sponsoring org. can defer such as a Church. My question is, will the one that defers come under attack as National did. Are we leaving some of the sponsoring org. open because they don’t. The BSA National was a buffer. Is BSA opening up itself for whatever. No matter which way it goes there are people who will be upset. Being honest I am not for it. That is me. I have my beliefs and everyone else has theirs. I work with two men who are Gay. I have their respect because I do not judge them. They have been open with me and I have been open with them on my beliefs. I just hope it does not tear the scouting program apart. I enjoy working with the scouts. I have put my other hobbies aside to devote more time and money to the troop. I am looking forward to more posts
Spot on Clarke Spot on
As an aside, when did the comment section switch to LiveFyre?
Back to the topic, I truly hope that everyone celebrating this move to be more inclusive is also actively stumping to allow atheists and girls into the Boy Scouting program; otherwise, the door is being opened wider only for some folks’ favorite demographic, vice being opened fully to all youth that could benefit from the program.
@Steve043 The difference is Atheism directly conflicts with a Scout being Reverent and doing “his Duty to God”. An Atheist, by definition, doesn’t believe in any sort of higher power. Allowing gays in is a moral, not religious issue. Not all religions see homosexuals the same way. Bringing in the Atheists will cause some programmatic changes that allowing Homosexuals will not.
@John2011 @Steve043 Other scouting organisations have changed their promise to accommodate the scope of beliefs. Scouts Australia(we allow girls too) says ‘to my god’ to make it more personal. Girl Guides Australia just changed theirs to ‘to further my beliefs’. Removing the requirement for a god but still requiring a belief system of some kind.
A few years ago, I sas “Mr. Scoutmaster” on TV. I saw it around the time it came out (Dang!, 60 years ago), and remembered very little about it. So I was surprised to see a couple black kids in his troop, and Asian kids at the big Court Of Honor. Was not surprised to see all the things changed by 2-deep leadership and G2SS.
Clarke. Great blog. Here’s my perspective of the situation, as seen from the other side of the pond. http://johnccmay.net/?p=1249.
Clarke– thanks for this well-reasoned and thoughtful analysis. There is a bumpy road for the BSA coming, but I think Scouting will make it out the other side stronger than ever because of this change.
It remains to be seen what fallout might occur within individual troops. I have heard posturing but in the end I believe most will go on with “business as usual”. During my time as an adult scouter I have had parents tell me they would not let their son join scouting because of the BSA stance on homosexuality. My response was always the same. I have never seen an adult or boy turned away from our pack or troop due to sexual orientation. I also don’t recall my son or myself being asked what our sexual orientation was when we signed up. To my recollection I have never been at a meeting or outing where it was necessary to discuss a scout or scouter’s sexual orientation.
Clarke – Great write up.
@Glenn2012 I agree, Glenn, I think there will be a lot of hullabaloo for a while as we sort things out and things will quiet down after a bit.Like you I see no relevance to sexual orientation as a consideration for much of anything – people are people.
@Glenn2012
Our Scoutmaster brought up some instances (among the adults) where a Scout’s sexual orientation will very likely play an important role. BSA doesn’t allow males and females to tent together, except for married adults. Are all the gay Scouts going to have to tent by themselves (which could become a safety issue), or are we going to pretend that gay Scouts have more self-control than hetero Scouts and ignore the inequity in having rules for some but not others? Same goes for latrines–we go as far as to prevent youth and adults of the same gender from using shower facilities at the same time; are we now going to have hetero, homo and adult latrine times/facilities?
@Steve043 @Glenn2012 Good grief. Just because someone is homosexual doesn’t mean they are going to hit on everyone of the same sex. Do you hit on everyone of the opposite sex? Most of my male adult leaders tent by themselves already because of snoring!
@kapahlke @Glenn2012
No, I don’t it on every woman I meet. However, by your logic, boys and girls in Scouting should be able to tent and shower together, since just because they’re heterosexual doesn’t mean they are going to hit on everyone of the opposite sex, right? Or are you implying homosexuals have some special self-control that heterosexuals lack? Why is it different for one and not the other?
I believe the imagined concerns are going to be much worse than the actual concerns. Even though the scouts have had a policy against open or avowed homosexuals that does not mean a significant number of gay scouts and adult leaders haven’t participated in the program.
Think of it this way, when you go to a public event do you see separate restroom facilities for heterosexuals and homosexuals? Also from a scouting perspective inappropriate contact is inappropriate contact whether heterosexuals or homosexuals are involved.
@Steve043 Does the military see any reason to have separate facilities for gay and straight troops? Have any other Scouting organizations (most of the rest of the world, as a matter of fact) who have no prohibitions based on sexual orientation had these problems? Does the GSA have similar issues? The answer to all these questions is no.
@clarkegreen @Steve043 Good points.
It remains to be seen what fallout might occur within individual troops. I have heard posturing but in the end I believe most will go on with “business as usual”. During my time as aa adult scouter I have had parents tell me they would not let their son join scouting because of the BSA stance on homosexuality. My response was always the same. I have never seen an adult or boy turned away from our pack or troop due to sexual orientation. I also don’t recall my son or myself being asked what our sexual orintation was when we signed up. To my recollection I have never been at a meeting or outing where it was necessary to discuss a scout or scouter’s sexual orientation.
Clarke – Great write up.
I must admit, from a Scoutmaster point of view, this is going to be an EXTREMELY delicate conversation in the coming weeks among the adults/parents in our unit. My main concern, from a Troop point of view, is that the boys continue to receive the best program the BSA can offer regardless of any policy changes.
One thing that DOES have me concerned is the Legal status of this type of change. In other words, it appears that Legal action will now be more attuned towards the Chartered Organization and/or the Troop leadership as opposed to BSA in general. I think this may, subconsciously, influence how Chartered Organizations and Troop leadership decide their membership rules.
@ScoutmasterDave SCOTUS upheld the BSA’s argument that it was a private organization with the right of free association more than a decade ago. The legal challenges after that were a private organization’s access to public funds and amenities, not people suing chartering organizations over discrimination. I don’t think churches are being sued if they refuse to sanctify same sex marriages and they wouldn’t be sued over excluding people from membership based on sexual orientation.
@clarkegreen @ScoutmasterDave
The problem that could arise now, Clarke, is that it will no longer be BSA National Council with their big bank account and lawyers on retainer that can be sued, but rather the small community church, or PTA, or Masonic lodge who are not simply following the clear policy of BSA, but rather are instituting their own discriminatory policy.
We can brush aside such lawsuits as improbable, but improbable doesn’t equal impossible. I predict that within 3 years, someone will sue a chartering organization for discrimination when they don’t allow a homosexual youth or adult join their program. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.
@Steve043 @ScoutmasterDave Steve I think you’ve made it pretty clear that you don’t like the idea of lifting the ban, we can argue till the cows come home and more. Let’s move on.
How many Civic and Religious Organizations are going to willingly stick their neck out for a law suit? I think at the very least it will impact new Chartering Organizations to stop and think twice before opening their doors to BSA.
I am not sure what you are asking here. What is the basis for a possible lawsuit against a chartering organization?
Welcome to the can of worms, thanks for your respectful, thoughtful comments. Online conversations aren’t contextualized by facial expressions and tone of voice like face-to-face conversations, so word choices are pretty important – it’s tricky to get the tone just right sometimes.
When I sat on my Eagle Board in 2011 I told the Reviewer I’d add Tolerant to the Scout Law. I didn’t think this change would come so soon after. I think Scouting will be strengthened by this. As always, thank you Clarke for your well reasoned opinion on the subject.
@John2011 Thank you, John!
I believe that as a collective society we have, or are reaching the tipping point on the social acceptance of homosexuality. The ideal of equality in the name of non-discrimination has been the rallying cry for this change. Irregardless of the timing, the BSA seems like it might now be poised to shift its long-held stance, and allow voluntary integration. Given the division within the BSA’s ranks, it seems like this move had become inevitable. If this change happens, I will support the policy chosen by my chartered organization. I believe the Scout Oath and Law can benefit anybody.
While overall, I can get behind most of what has been said in this post, I would like to take issue with a few points. Although we don’t think of choice being involved in regards to gender and race, I believe there is an element of choice to sexual orientation. I also believe there are mental health aspects to homosexuality which society has not yet come to recognize. I simply don’t see the path to a homosexual lifestyle as one of simply becoming aware of personal sexual orientation and then electing to “come out”. Without commenting specifically on the lesbian side of things, I contend that living as a homosexual is a choice and a process. When we become collectively more aware of what that process is for an individual, I believe we will see it differently than we do now. I just don’t accept the current concept of how a homosexual ‘self-identifies’.
Finally, I disagree with the homosexual community and its supporter’s stance towards the BSA. The BSA is within its rights to set its own policy regarding the Scouting program. If there was an existing demand for a comparable program which included those who choose to identify themselves as homosexual, then why hasn’t one been created? If homosexuals truly believe they are entitled to be who they choose to be, then why aren’t they willing to grant the same to others? Is that the reason why we are told it isn’t a choice? I just don’t buy it. Pressuring a value-based organization with a national presence and strong cultural ties, such as the BSA, to integrate homosexuals, would certainly serve as a substantial symbolic victory for the homosexual equality movement. So I don’t buy the whole moral “equality” argument either.
@Shunt While I obviously disagree with your thoughts I appreciate the respectful way in which they were offered.
@Shunt To those who say homosexuality is a choice, I ask you a simple question. How easy would it be for you to choose to be gay? What makes you think it would be any easier for a homosexual to choose to be straight.
This was my response to the comments on the story in my local paper:
“This is only an issue to the BSA. Scouts Canada, Scouts Australia, and other national Scouting organizations worldwide admit all freely – male, female and in-between – and their programs are thriving. It is high time to openly serve all youth, regardless of background. Scouting will not die, nor will Sir Robert spin in his grave. Scouting is about Character with a Purpose and Citizenship. Local organizations will still determine their own composition, so if you have a narrow mind, you can always find a Troop that shares it. I will welcome anyone who wishes into my Troop.”
@senordangriga Thanks for the thought. I am being a bit of a school-marm today (forgive me as no disrespect is intended) and I would take exception to the term ‘narrow minded’ as being pejorative – even though I may agree with that characterization I think we could find a better way to say it.
I guess this is a start to a new generation of Scouting. I just hope more decisions come because of pressure. I can see it now, just like schools, Scouting will one day stop having Sunday services because it offends someone. Sorry to sound negative but we all know this is how the ball starts rolling.
This was so well written and I could not agree more. I too am upset with “scouters” that are outraged and will pull their scout from the program because of religious concerns. One of the greatest commandments Jesus ever gave was Love thy neighbor as thy self”. He did not say Love only the straight ones, love only the white ones, love only the male ones, love only the ones that are fully functional physically and mentally. He said Love Thy neighbor and he meant everybody. I say it is about time that this practice ends. Baden-Powell wanted scouts to be for ALL. In the UK, Australia, Canada and more nations around the world this has been a non-issue for over a decade. I don’t care if it is about money or NOT, this needs to end so we can move forward.
@john16 Thanks John! I agree that we will be catching up if this becomes policy,
Of course folks will disagree, and we will all do it respectfully here. There’s a lot of strong feelings around this and it’s tricky to express them respectfully in a comment like this, I will take exception to the tone of your comment. Let’s not preach at one another, okay?
@clarkegreen I agree, not trying to preach, just saying that we should just teach acceptance and all of the points of the scout Law and Oath. For those who say that they are upset because of faith. Faith is what should be telling them to be accepting of all. Point taken, I could have been less preachy and the point could be taken better. : ) Great Blog btw. 100% agree!
@john16 Thanks, John, onlne conversations aren’t contextualized by facial expressions and tone of voice like face-to-face conversations, so word choices are pretty important – it’s tricky to get the tone just right sometimes.
Money is the biggest factor in this. Nothing for years until large corporations stopped donations. Like I stated, I can accept decision if it was for one thing and one thing only. I have many gay and lesbian friends that would make good leaders. If BSA changes this rule, they need to look at many other “Outdated” rules.
I think that this is a positive policy change and a huge step forward for the organization. It ends institutional discrimination while not forcing chartered organizations to follow policies counter to their beliefs. This issue has been a huge impediment to recruitment in our area where parents many parents aren’t willing to be associated with any group that excludes people for any reason. It would nice to not have this issue hanging over our heads.
@MichaelPolkinghorn I agree, and at the same time I understand this is going to cause some distress to some of my fellow Scouters. So long as we focus on the things we have in common we ought to be fine.
I disagree with the decision. I think it is a decision made under pressure for money. If the decision was made for other reasons, I could better accept it. But for money?? So BSA will allow people with alternative lifestyles, but Scouts can’t have a “Car wash” to earn camp money? How does this make sense? Maybe the BSA rules need a new 20th century make over all together..
@KarlSchweinfurth Well, there’s nothing that indicates to me this is strictly a money decision, I will say that any decision at that level is going to have financial considerations but I’d hope they’d be secondary to the real issue at hand.
@KarlSchweinfurth By the way, it’s a proposal, nobody has decided anything yet.
So it’s a done deal then – I thought it was just under consideration?
@babernethy Not a done deal, not at all. It’s under consideration at the annual meeting of the BSA executive board this weekend and next week.
@clarkegreen @babernethy It’s about time. I must say I am surprised how quickly this change has come after the stand they took last year. A stand that caused my District to lose at least one committee chair and several families in protest.
Any suggestions on how to get comments to the BSA Executive Board before their meeting?
@kapahlke @clarkegreen @babernethy I believe this may work. http://www.scouting.org/ContactUs.aspx
Just for reference, will this become the position of the National BSA then – that “sexual orientation” is an inborn trait (such as gender and race) and is not a moral choice, and therefore unacceptable for a criteria for acceptance/rejection of scouting leaders? This is, at its core, a strong moral/ethical and arguably religious statement – and will be at odds with many individuals, organizations and faiths.
@babernethy What I read in the statement issued by the BSA indicates that nationally they will no longer consider sexual orientation as a factor in determining membership, so yes. On the other hand they are giving chartering organizations who disagree the latitude to decide the other way. Seems like the best way to handle things to me.Certainly some will discontinue their association with Scouting because of it, but that’s nothing new.