“For far too long, this issue has divided and distracted us. Now it’s time to unite behind our shared belief in the extraordinary power of Scouting to be a force for good.”
Robert Gates, BSA president.
In a vote of the executive committee yesterday the BSA ends the ban on gay leaders.
From a BSA press release–
“On Monday, July 27, the National Executive Board ratified a resolution that removes the national restriction on openly gay adult leaders and employees. Of those present and voting, 79 percent voted in favor of the resolution. The resolution was recommended for ratification by the Executive Committee earlier this month. The resolution is effective immediately.”
For some years the question of sexual orientation has opened a rift in our families, our communities, our nation, and the BSA. It’s not my intention to argue, we all must search our hearts and decide this issue for ourselves.
It’s difficult to separate this issue from politics. Recent Supreme Court decisions have settled many questions in law but complex political questions of how this issue relates to constitutional freedoms (the freedom of religion, freedom of association, and freedom of speech) continue to be debated. Certainly we can agree that excluding a class of people for something over which they have no choice is objectively unethical.
I will say that, although it should have been made a decade or two ago, I welcome the decision. I’m not in a particularly celebratory mood – I understand why some expressions of religion choose to discriminate on this basis I don’t share that point of view.
From a practical standpoint this decision will effect our overall membership numbers. Reportedly 70% units are chartered by religious entities, and it’s almost certain that some will find this change untenable.
I’ve openly opposed this discrimination in the BSA for fifteen or twenty years, so I understand how it feels to be on the outside looking in, and how distressing this change will be to some. I struggled with this question mightily. I chose to keep serving the young people in my community, and working to change this discriminatory policy. Something I could only accomplish by continuing to be a member of the BSA.
The quote from our national president says it all “It’s time to unite behind our shared belief in the extraordinary power of Scouting to be a force for good.”
Here’s Robert Gates speaking about the resolution –
Naturally we are not all going to agree on this. Like most of you I am weary of arguing and debating this issue.
I welcome you to leave a comment below but online discussions of debatable questions are rarely polite exchanges of ideas and quickly degrade into personal attacks – even among Scouters.
I think we can do better than that – please, please, please prove me right!
If you’d like to contact me via email feel free to do so
A WORD ABOUT COMMENT MODERATION
I always moderate comments here on the blog and in my social media outlets.
Name calling, personal attacks, needless sniping, and SHOUTING, are the reasons I remove comments.
Update 7.28 [6:30] PM
It has oft been repeated in the comments that this policy change exposes religious organizations that charter units to being sued (I assume over discrimination) or that the BSA will not defend the right of religious charters to discriminate. The new policy allows chartered organizations to decide, but does not mean that they are on their own when it comes to defending those decisions.
These sort of claims have no basis and I ask those of you who are making such statements to stop misleading people.
The BSA’s legal firm Hughes Hubbard & Reed prepared a memo addressing these concerns
“We understand that some religious organizations are concerned that if they exclude homosexuals from leadership in Scouting units that they charter after the BSA changes its policy they will be vulnerable to lawsuits from the potential leaders they exclude. Those concerns should be allayed by the legal defenses that religious organizations have under place of public accommodation statutes and the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
The risk that a homosexual activist might file a lawsuit seeking admission to a Scouting unit (e.g., a Boy Scout troop or a Cub Scout pack) of a religious chartered organization whose religious values are inconsistent with homosexual conduct cannot be eliminated. We live in a litigious society, and frivolous lawsuits are threatened and filed every day. However, any lawsuit challenging the religious requirements in a Scouting unit chartered by a religious organization would be unlikely to succeed or even make much progress.
.. the BSA would not seek to exert pressure on any religious chartered organization. Rather, the BSA will help safeguard the religious chartered organizations by defending their protected expression and religious liberties in connection with the selection of unit leaders.”
Update 7.29 [9:50] AM
The Catholic Committee on Scouting statement
“The National Catholic Committee on Scouting recognizes that differences in religious beliefs among chartered organizations and society in general have played a part in the creation of this resolution. While this fluctuating situation will be increasingly challenging, we recognize the vital importance of providing a Catholic emphasis to Catholic Scouts and Scouters seeking ways to live out their “duty to God”. We also recognize the increasing need for the Catholic Church to offer Scouting as a program of youth ministry. Chartering Scout units will ensure that youth within their faith communities are led by faith-filled role models who share the same interests in Scouting.”
“The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is deeply troubled by today’s vote by the Boy Scouts of America National Executive Board. In spite of a request to delay the vote, it was scheduled at a time in July when members of the Church’s governing councils are out of their offices and do not meet. When the leadership of the Church resumes its regular schedule of meetings in August, the century-long association with Scouting will need to be examined. The Church has always welcomed all boys to its Scouting units regardless of sexual orientation. However, the admission of openly gay leaders is inconsistent with the doctrines of the Church and what have traditionally been the values of the Boy Scouts of America.”
Update 8.26
In the resolution adopted on July 27, 2015, and in subsequent verbal assurances to us, BSA has reiterated that it expects those who sponsor Scouting units (such as the Church) to appoint Scout leaders according to their religious and moral values “in word and deed and who will best inculcate the organization’s values through the Scouting program.” At this time, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will go forward as a chartering organization of BSA, and as in the past, will appoint Scout leaders and volunteers who uphold and exemplify Church doctrine, values, and standards.
#BSA ends the ban on gay leaders – time to unite behind shared belief in extraordinary power of Scouting http://t.co/35OiObfxkB
Thanks for writing this article. You have given perspective and ethical perspective to this topic.
It’s hard to believe that the BSA did not get prior approval from the LDS Church or at least came to an agreement. The brief from the head office made it sound like they disappointed and didn’t know it was coming. And what’s with the entire upper echelon of the church out of town this week? I’ve never known much about this church, but their internal politics have a huge impact on our future success. Most scouts are not Mormon but most Units are Mormon. The LDS Church has the most scout units; Pack, Troop or Crew. ALL of their Chartered Organizations will do what the LDS Church says. So this is kind of important. I don’t want to sound critical, I just don’t know much about it.
Thanks Tom – the whole LDS response is a mystery to me, I am sure that goodwill will win out though.
Clark you left out an important part of the LDS Churches statement. Which as an LDS Scoutmaster I feel is an important part of the puzzle that the LDS church leaders are evaluating.
“As a global organization with members in 170 countries, the Church has long been evaluating the limitations that fully one-half of its youth face where Scouting is not available. Those worldwide needs combined with this vote by the BSA National Executive Board will be carefully reviewed by the leaders of the Church in the weeks ahead.”http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program?cid=HP_MO_7-27-2015_dPAD_fMNWS_xLIDyL2-1_
I am not sure I understand this – is it saying that the BSA policies may not be acceptable in other countries? If so is it simply the idea that non LDS units may be accepting of LBGT adult volunteers is a deal breaker in another country?
Boy Scouts Welcome to the 21st Century, I can now proudly profess the many virtues of Boys Scouts with out saying except for their position on Gays. Girls have their own Scouting program. And, girls can join the Venturing program at 14 years.
Sir;my opinion is just that an educated observation.The LG community has had no reason to bring litigation against any charter organization until now. With National basically leaving those organizations alone ,they will now be the targets of that litigation no matter your opinion,that will be the case.Just watch what happens now. You cannot live under a rock with your eyes closed,and pretend they will just stop their attacks.
What attacks? Who is taking churches to court because they can’t be a member or volunteer?
What “LG community” is going to attack chartered partners? How will they do this? Why would they do this?
When has the ‘LG community” attacked a chartered partner in the past? Show me one instance.
Where does the BSA say it is “leaving those organizations alone”? How does this policy change alter their commitment?
Clarke,
Why do you refer to what has been done prior to this decision as “discrimination”? Do you really feel that way? In your follow up post you note that religious institutions should not worry because our constitution will protect us in choosing leaders. For me to stay in Scouting, I am counting on just that. But when people in positions such as yourself use the term “discrimination”, you are just supporting those who would seek to entangle a religious institution in a court battle. I suggest if you truly feel both sides should be able to get along with this issue, you STOP using the term “discrimination”. Use of that word is negative, inflammatory and critical.
What other word do you suggest I use? Discrimination (defined as treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit) is exactly what it is, and I think it’s antithetical to the spirit of Scouting.
I am not sure exactly who I would theoretically be supporting to “entangle a religious institution in a court battle”. Point to to me a single case where the courts have forced a religious institution to accept a volunteer or member. If someone sought my encouragement to mount such a case I would tell them they were foolish. Religious organizations have a first amendment right to discriminate, one that they have exercised and defended since the constitution was written.
Beyond that the BSA has always defended Chartered partners in making these choices, and they will continue to do so. Find me one instance where someone successfully challenged the BSA membership standards in court, or an instance where the BSA did not come to the defense of a chartered partner.
The fear that this policy change will somehow unleash a flood of litigation on Chartered partners is both unfounded and inflammatory – it is a non issue. If you believe otherwise please tell me exactly who would mount such a challenge and the legal theory they would use.
Understand, too, that I have one position in Scouting, I am a venture crew advisor – a position of very limited power and influence.
Based on this latest move, I would not suggest any religious institution count on the BSA to help defend them. That would be foolish. The BSA has shown us what they will take a stance on and what they will not.
If you need information as to what’s coming and who’s working on this, I suggest you look at the ACLU’s web site. This is a clip from their site, “Religious freedom in America means that we all have a right to our religious beliefs, but this does not give us the right to use our religion to discriminate against and impose those beliefs on others who do not share them.” You will note the term “discrimination” is also a word they feel comfortable using. The ACLU is clearly shaping through their threat of litigation the decisions of many religious institutions trying to live out their faith.
Check out their web site: https://www.aclu.org/feature/using-religion-discriminate
You keep saying the threat of litigation is “unfounded”. Stop looking at the past and look to the future. I’m not worried about what happened yesterday it’s what’s coming I’m worried about. As I said, for me to stay in Scouting, I am counting on the religious institution protection but don’t tell me I’ve got nothing to worry about. That would make me “un-prepared”.
“Based on this latest move, I would not suggest any religious institution count on the BSA to help defend them.” Even though the BSA has stated the contrary unequivocally, and have a long history of having done exactly that? How does the membership policy change alter that commitment?
“The ACLU is clearly shaping through their threat of litigation the decisions of many religious institutions trying to live out their faith.” Point this out to me specifically, where is the ALCU taking action against a religious institution? As a ACLU member I know that we have acted to defend the rights of religious organizations many times.
If you read the information you linked to on the ACLU website it supports exactly what I am saying. There is no mention of religious organizations or churches, but businesses and corporations using the guise of religious objections to discriminate just as they did when the civil rights act passed in the sixties.
The BSA (and by extension, the chartering organizations that sponsor it’s units) established it’s right to discriminate in how it defines membership standards in a Supreme Court decision – BSA v. Dale in 2000. I repeat, again, the BSA has unequivocally stated that it will defend it’s chartered organizations in applying the revised membership standards.
I don’t understand, in the face of this evidence, what there is to worry about.
http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-re-evaluating-scouting-program
We must think about the purpose of Scouting. If we divide then so many youth will never know what Scouting has to offer. I am in my 64th year in Scouting and will pray nothing will hurt us.
Craig Robinson
This was based on money being withheld from corporations. They are hoping that this will bring back funding.
Frankly, I think this decision makes a LOT more sense than the original “only homosexual youth, no homosexual leaders” stance. So, what, we’re teaching young men and women (Explorers) to be leaders, but when they become leaders, they can’t because they happen to be gay? That made no sense at all.
As for homosexual leaders, I would bet that they have existed for a long time; they were just in the closet. On the whole, homosexuals want everything that heterosexuals want – happy, healthy kids, who grow up to be happy, healthy adults. I’ve been involved in some aspect of Scouting for 20+ years, in every position from Mom on up to D.E. At no time have we EVER counseled leaders to discuss sexuality with kids; ALWAYS, the position has been, “Send them to their parents, family, clergy.” I keep hearing that “those gays” should be kept out because they’re pedophiles, or because “they’re going to recruit”. Ain’t gonna happen, people. Scouting will go on, unless we tear ourselves apart with this ridiculous bickering over political issues.
The BSA President, Robert Gates, has said it best: “For far too long, this issue has divided and distracted us. … http://t.co/hxVggfsDNS
Sad Day!
Also, how many professional Scouter’s are going to be laid off when the effects begin to be felt financially?
Many people on here say they agree with the decision. But huge numbers of Scouter’s do not. Including myself. What about us? The LDS Church just announced they will be discussing next month whether or not to abandon the BSA over this and form their own group. I believe this will cripple the BSA as a whole. Regardless of what your stance is on the issue of homosexuality, this very small minority is going to cause much damage to the movement.
I’ve openly opposed this discrimination (that caused much damage to the BSA) for fifteen or twenty years, so I understand how it feels to be on the outside looking in, and how distressing this change will be to some.
Desegregating the BSA, allowing women to become Scoutmasters, and ceasing to discriminate against youth on the basis of sexual orientation, were thought (by some) to be the end of the BSA at the time. It didn’t happen then, and it won’t now.
I struggled with this question mightily, and considered leaving, but I chose to keep serving the young people in my community, and working to change this discriminatory policy. Something I could only accomplish by continuing to be a member of the BSA.
I also worked alongside plenty of Scouters who held exactly the opposite opinion, but the spirit of our work overcame our differences.
I understand your position, but if LDS leaves and expenses and membership costs go up, what then? My Council already closed both Boy Scout Camps this year. Many Troops are opting out of FOS. I have low income kids in my Troop and a lot comes out of my pocket. Let’s face it, costs will go up if LDS leaves. Also, we lost one charter org due to the first change regarding youth. Now there is talk we may have to leave the current one because of this vote. I also work full time. At some point it will be too much.
The LDS question is way beyond me, it would be a shame if they left.
I think it will be the end of BSA if the LDS church leaves.
I am sure the BSA may virtually disappear where folks are majority LDS but that absence would be filled with whatever program the LDS creates in it’s place. While I think the LDS departing would be tragic, and I hope it doesn’t happen I think and financial shortfall from LDS leaving would be made up pretty quickly. LDS is roughly 25% of current BSA membership a significant, but sustainable, loss considering we have lost 30% of our membership overall since 2000, and 13% in the past two years.
Objectively and frankly, in the best spirit possible, other changes I advocate (a fully co-ed program, and the inclusion of atheists and agnostics) may be also be objectionable to LDS folks. Without those changes I don’t see how the BSA stops the 15 year accelerating membership crisis (much less seeing any growth) and I think the decline will continue.
There are quite a few countries where Scouting is divided along Catholic/protestant lines, with two separate organizations. I think there’s plenty of room in the US for more than one Scouting organization. I’d think that sort of arrangement would likely see more young people getting the benefits of Scouting, and the young people won’t really care who is in what Scouting organization, just that the other person is a Scout. Youth members seem to understand Scouting as something anyone ought to be able to do, they don’t typically vilify each other over differences, they look for the common threads of brotherhood.
It’s we adults who can’t seem to get past the differences, to a young person a Scout is a Scout.
It would indeed.
They might have the most units, but they don’t comprise the most members. Most of their units are 100% LDS members only. I’d hate to see them go, too. Maybe they could change their program to match the rest of the USA and be more inviting to their neighbors. Or more likely, they’ll go the route of Trail Life USA and either join them or form yet another splinter Scouting program. But hey, it’s still a Scouting program.
Michael LDS units have always be open to inviting individuals who are not of their faith to join their units. They go as far as paying for all registration fees and any other fees related to being a scout. We treat no one any different all we ask is they adhere to the standards of the church the same as other young men.
Our Charter Org hasn’t ruled out Trail Life……..I’m pushing to stay BSA as long as we can remain self governing as it pertains to our own Troops membership standards.
I do not think they will leave. BSA carries a lot of weight and it would take LDS a long time to create an organization with the respect that being an Eagle Scout carries.
Robin as an LDS scout leader I don’t think it would take very long to create a program that produces the same out comes for the church as BSA does. I also do not think the “respect that being and Eagle Scout carries.” will have anything to do with the churches decision.
I would say “Welcome to the 21st century!” but there is that pesky issue of allowing girls to join. Baby steps: congratulations on making that first one.
At least we are zooming into the late 20th century!
Now THAT presents a whole new set of problems to be solved…
Or opportunities to be enjoyed!
I was pondering the logistical aspects.
We had a large co-ed group from Ireland at our camp this summer, no big deal really.
I’m a Canadian Scouter. I assure you, co-ed is not that big of a deal. Good luck!
In the bubble we call the USA, you all will be surprised there are plenty of nations that already have full co-ed in their Scouting program (and not 2 separate programs like we have here.) 3 G’s, right SM CG?
With the introduction of the venturing program we became a coed program. My son’s recent NYLT had 15%-20% female participants. And forget not that the BSA has been open to female adult leaders for quite a long time.
Yup, since 1988 David.
We are co-ed for girls aged 13-17, but not in Cubs or in Scouts – we have a long way to go.
Wow unfollowing
I expect to lose readers and followers when these subjects come up – not trying to offend but that’s the way things go.
I agree.
However, you’ll gain some too!
7 billion people in the world. You can please some of the people some of the time … yada, yada, yada.
I like that people announce they’re going to unfollow. Why don’t they just unfollow without announcing it? 🙂
Forgive my humour (for that is exactly what it is) but I have long thought those who announce they are ‘unfollowing’ or whatever simply enjoy a good flounce. Hard to flounce off in a huff if nobody sees you go. 😉
Clarke, you once responded or described at one point in a podcast that there was an essence to scouting. As if there was a principle of scouting that took different forms and found its way into different organizations. I think that is where we are at. Clearly you are an advocate of BSA developing a scouting principle along–and this is the best word I can use to describe it –a more liberal progression. That is fine. However, BSA is going to indirectly birth new organizations which are going to adhere to their interpretations of Lord Baden-Powell’s original principles and follow more conservative guidelines that strengthen a religious foundation. Both your ideals and those other ideals will reflect aspects of scouting. Neither will be able to say unequivocally that they represent scouting.
Scouting is not an organization, it is a movement. It cannot be contained by an ideology or a particular point of view, it;s a lot bigger than that.
I have always been aware that I am part of a movement, and a member of an organization. These are two very different things. I appreciate and value a diversity of opinion and ways to apply Scouting.
I make no claim to having lightning in a jar, or to being right about things, I just tell folks what I understand as I understand it. Thankfully what we all hold in common is much greater than our differences.
Thank you, opportunities to be enjoyed.
DAVID HULL I see absolutely no difference between what I am advocating and the principles Baden-Powell built the Scouting movement on.
Just like Jesus, Buddha, Moses, and Mohammad’s followers, everyone will have their own “interpretation” of our “Lord” (Baden Powell in this case) and if different enough, will create a splinter Scouting movements.
David has his, CG has his, I have mine, etc. We each try and “convert” the other to the “correct” way of thinking.
Just one of many reasons I see similarities between religion and Scouting.
I appreciate that you (CLARKE) have dedicated yourself to scouting and been such an advocate of promoting its origins and progress (as you see it). I do think scouting is still diversifying and that aspects of Baden-Powell’s principles will be highlighted differently among those applying the experience of scouting in their own unique ways.
(MICHAEL) I will agree with different principles related within the greater concept of scouting. I would suggest we not draw correlations as far as religions are concerned simply because the differences are pretty stark (and probably worth their own, separate dialogue). Best to keep ourselves leveled out towards scouting as an example of multiplicity with still a core of similarity, imo. : )
It is great that as a woman I can be a den leader. Girl scouts are for girls and boy scouts are for boys makes pretty good sense I think.
They already can!!
Go Venturing!!!!
Yes, but girls cannot be cub scouts or scouts, and girls in venturing cannot earn the same awards as boys, that’s segregation, and it means we have a ways to go before we are co-ed.
Scouting is for all youth and the programs should have parity. Sadly, that is not the case and the youth are the ones left out.
There is no room for homophobia, hate and religious zealotry in Scouts.
Just read Clarke’s comments on the web site. I have an idea. If you really mean what you say about agnostics, atheists, homosexuals, I just ask then that Scouting remove all of its references to God within its Oath. Immediately. Please also remove the office of “Chaplain” or “Chaplain’s Aid” from among its membership opportunities for boy leaders. Rid scouting of the pretense of embracing the existence of a Moral Lawgiver mentioned in the Scout Oath. The Scout Oath implies a morality and level of ethical structure presented to people by Someone outside of themselves. At this point, Scouting calls that Someone “God” and Scouts are asked to swear that they will do their duty by Him, seemingly towards a standard He determines. That standard as recently as 2000 included something called “morally straight” which thousands upon thousands of scouts swore to uphold. But if the national organization can reverse this interpretation, then they are clearly no longer concerned with any duty to God or standard He presents. They are clearly deciding those standards themselves and then using the pretense of devotion to “God” to follow their own interpretation of social principles. It makes a mockery of the Oath, therefore, to keep God as part of its declaration. So just get God off the hook and allow the men who want to decide what is “morally straight” to do so. It’s as simple as excising verbiage from the Oath which is at this point is little more than an empty declaration, swearing to do duty to individual/organizational principles and dictates. Allow scouting to become a moral code, a social structure, and an ethics organization based exclusively upon the ideals determined by men and regulated by men. But stop using God as some sort of foundation.
Scouting accepts all religious faiths, even some that are in conflict with each other as to what the oath and law means.
There’s no “scout religion” or specific interpretation of scripture guiding the BSA, nor has there ever been. People of all faiths are welcomed, even Buddhists like me that don’t believe in God.
At no time did I suggest eliminating God, or constraining your particular religious faith, just that we can also extend membership to atheists and agnostics as many other Scouting organizations have.
I respect a welcoming aspect to scouting. How about this compromise. If there is concern in excising God from the oath, then add to the verbiage. Simply add “as I understand God” to the Oath. Simple. This allows for any interpretation of God to be applied at an individual and personal level by the scout. It removes the idea of a God (and therefore one standard principle of that God’s “morally straight” direction). Clearly one scout’s God is going to come into conflict with another scout’s God (or even absence of God). Or maybe national should–as long as it is allowing local charters to make determinations on leadership–allow charters to also impact the oath to reflect the values of the charter whether that is religious or non-religious. Either resolution removes the pretense of a universal scout declaration of adhering in duty toward one “God” or one set of “Godly” precepts which is clearly not an general concept intended at this point.
Yes, an alternative, optional wording that makes the oath more personal for Scouts of all faiths (or none) would be the way to go wouldn’t it? That’s how the Scouts Association in England handles this (and has for decades).
As it stands we all say”god” but many mean something else, or would be happy to have an alternative term.
Statements by Lord Baden-Powell
“The Scout, in his promise, undertakes to do his duty to his king and country only in the second place; his first duty is to God. It is with this idea before us and recognizing that God is the one Father of us all, that we Scouts count ourselves a brotherhood despite the difference among us of country, creed, or class. We realize that in addition to the interests of our particular country, there is a higher mission before us, namely the promotion of the Kingdom of God; That is, the rule of Peace and Goodwill on earth. In the Scouts each form of religion is respected and its active practice encouraged and through the spread of our brotherhood in all countries, we have the opportunity in developing the spirit of mutual good will and understanding.
“There is no religious “side” of the movement. The whole of it is based on religion, that is, on the realization and service of God.
“Let us, therefore, in training our Scouts, keep the higher aims in the forefront, not let ourselves get too absorbed in the steps. Don’t let the technical outweigh the moral. Field efficiency, back woodsmanship, camping, hiking, Good Turns, jamboree comradeship are all means, not the end. The end is CHARACTER with a purpose.
“Our objective in the Scouting movement is to give such help as we can in bringing about God’s Kingdom on earth by including among youth the spirit and the daily practice in their lives of unselfish goodwill and cooperation.”
And yes Zach Wahls has already sent a letter redirecting the inclusive scouting network to address the ban on non theists, so the fight has changed. Duty to God just became the next battle
The time for agreeing or disagreeing is over. What we should be discussing is how we will all contribute towards saving and growing the BSA
I have tired of the issue. Let’s go build something for the youth
Put our efforts where our passion lies and change the world one youth at a time
Well, I think the BSA finally did the right thing in trusting their Chartered Organizations to make the decisions.
That being said, I am waiting for the call from our Chartered Organziation Rep telling us we have to leave.
So, back to putting my sales hat on and explain to them that it does not mean that we are being forced to adopt the rule, as it is up to them to decide that course. If that is good for them – then we can stay – if the media and the agenda driven win – then you can expect about a 30% drop in youth.
Think about it. One single issue is going to drive Scouting into sub millions. It is up to us to pick up the pieces and move forward. I don’t know about you – but with this coming – I believe my council budget would have been cut by 30%.
Simply put BSA has cut loose the individual Chartered Orgnizations to fend for them selves, should the Chartered Orgnization decide to stay true and disallow Gay Leaders ,it is NOW up to the individual Chartered Orgnization to Fend off the Law suites that will surly be brought on by the ACLU and the like. Who do you think is going to win out then?
Show me where the “BSA has cut loose the individual Chartered Orgnizations (sic) to fend for them selves” or what lawsuits will “surly (sic) be brought on by the ACLU” based on what the ACLU (I am a card carrying member) has said.
I have shown that the BSA says exactly the opposite, you are misleading people – stop it.
I believe the best compromise has been chosen. I know there will be those who want to keep adding fuel by debating this issue further, but to me, I feel it is time to let this fire die. As leaders we have spent far too much time discussing the rights, the wrongs, the legal and moral implications, etc. There are opinions out there that we cannot hope to change on either side of the fence. We now need to get back to serving the youth and do the tasks we have signed on for and move on.
I don’t see where someone’s private activities behind closed doors has anything to do with being a Scout Leader — aside from those wishing to discriminate against others as a result of such activities.
That said, bravo to the BSA and Robert Gates. I’m prouder to be a Scouter today than I was before.
It’s time for us to get back to the matters at hand — raising these boys into being well-balanced and productive members of society. Leaders among men… We’ve heard many tout the phrase, “Love the sinner. Hate the sin.” While I personally feel as though that is a roundabout way of saying “I pity you…”, if that’s what it takes, so be it.
My concern is not whether homosexual leaders should or should not be allowed. I have my own personal opinion about it, but regardless of which side I fall on that debate, I fear more the long term effect of allowing chartering organizations more and more control over the program. COs have always had some unofficial control over leadership, but now it is policy that they are allowed to establish their own standards. This will inevitably lead to different flavors of scouting. Rather than being welcoming to all, will COs begin developing their own brand of scouting? Catholic Scouts/Methodist Scouts/Morman Scouts … will they feel empowered to limit their unit memberships to members of their own congregation? Will they begin adding more requirements for membership in their units? “Only families who tithe $n per year can join” or “only males can be leaders in my unit” or “only parents of scouts can be leaders” etc. I don’t think that is too far-fetched. This would lead to sub-types among units. “That’s the Catholic troop”, “that’s the black troop”, “that’s the rich troop”, and “that’s the gay troop.” Will units only be comfortable around other units of their type? What do camporees and summer camps become? How does program training and roundtables evolve – or devolve? Where does it stop? What if the lifeguard /MB Counselor at summer camp is gay? Will some units not permit their scouts to swim or take an aquatics merit badge? What effect does passing the power to set membership policy have on the continuity and quality of the program?
The COs SHOULD have this right. The way the BSA is structured, the CO OWNS the unit, and approves all leadership. They are able to impose many different restrictions on their unit. As an integral part of their mission, that is their right. The BSA can’t have it both ways…
This has already happened. LDS runs a very different version of Scouting than do non-LDS Packs and Troops.
Yep and one day you’ll look back with regret……
Not I! I only regret this took so long – and there are more changes that need to be made – at least this is a start!
We all need to remember – it is about the Scouts. We simply need to move on with care.
The problem here is that there was no debate. There was no general conversation, just implementation of policy from national in violation of the principles of dialogue that scouting promotes in every other area. In 2000 when BSA won its Supreme Court case it used “morally straight” as the crux of its position regarding homosexuals. Now, it disregards that aspect of the Oath as distinguishing between gay leaders and straight leaders. So was BSA disingenuous in its original court case? Was the money they spent then done so lightly? Seriously, how many aspects of the Scout Oath and Scout Law right now is being demonstrated by national leadership towards the boys who seek mentors in Scouting? Forget the present policy, how has BSA itself not made a mockery of its own principles by arguing one way vehemently (and successfully) and now completely turned in the opposition direction simply because of the passage of time? Is this what Scouters are to learn? Principles are a function of social perception. Ugh. Scary.
It’s not simply the passage of time. It’s the expense of multiple lawsuits, it’s the expense of having donors and corporations that donate large sums pulling support. Unfortunately, it ultimately boils down to money, the same as the decision to allow female leaders in the 70’s. It’s just gotten too expensive to fight lawsuit after lawsuit to defend the decision of the Supreme Court in 2000. In 2012/2013 you had many large donor corporations share-holders take a stand and threaten to sell their stock and drive the companies into ruin if they didn’t stop supporting scouting until they allowed openly gay youth members. This is just a continuation of that same battle. It eventually comes down to allowing a more diverse membership or having to disband to organization due to a lack of funding.
Which multiple lawsuits?
And, unfortunately, Jonathan, it equally teaches boys that in living out their principles–which as Scoutmaster I constantly reference both via the Law and Oath as good starting places–they should keep a sharp eye towards what society will or will not generally approve. I’m not ignorant of the financial leverage wielded against organizations such as scouting. We’ve all seen recently an Oregon couple not only run out of business but punished with a $100,000 fine for adhering to their stance against gay marriage. So I know how severe it can get. However, there is a broader conversation that includes our young men and the idea of standing up for a principle even in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds. Will our young men see this as a progressive step, a surrendering step, or something else? It’s hard to sort that out right now, but it is a result we will all face within our troops.
I can tell you that my Scouts got over this ages ago, it’s a non issue to them.
It’s quite obvious that scoutmaster blog does not care about the argument that scouting has lost it’s way and bowed down to corporate and society pressure, and that it is easier to submit than stand up for what is right.
No, Scott. It sounds like you’re having a hard time grasping that folks have a different opinion than yours and both are valid in the discussion.
Well, Scott, I wouldn’t put exactly that way. I do care about this a great deal, and worked to make this change for many, many years. Had the BSA ended this discriminatory policy many years ago when it should have those pressures would never have been brought to bear.
Now you’re discriminating against others values, but that does not matter anymore in this day and age. I understand it, but don’t agree with it.
Disagreeing about a position isn’t discrimination. You’re allowed to feel the way you do. Kicking someone out of scouts for a facet of their self is, however.
All National did was put the ball in the chartering organizations court.National is all about the money,that is now apparent.When a church now says no to a gay leader,the chartering organization will be the ones getting sued.And ultimately they will just drop the charter!
You are absolutely dead wrong.
Potential employees or volunteers of religious organizations whose job duties reflect “a role in conveying the Church’s message and carrying out its mission” are barred by the First Amendment from suing over employment discrimination. This was the subject of a unanimous Supreme court decision four years ago.
And in the end are all these donors and corporate sponsors returning there all mighty dollars the the BSA in any for? I’ve been a Scout for 37 years. I’ve seen packs and troops fold, camps close and councils merge, all for the betterment of the boys. Now this but the real problem is popular society does not follow anything that Scouting is trying to establish in our country. Live by what you believe in or just conform.
Sexuality should be a non-issue for a youth organization. With that said, however, I don’t expect the pressure on the BSA to stop, and will instead grow to force them to adopt a nationwide prohibition on chartered orgs considering orientation in selecting and approving leaders. Belief in God will not be far behind on the chopping block under the seemingly-innocuous theme of inclusiveness.
Yes, hopefully we’ll expand our understanding of this duty to understand atheists and agnostics are just as valuable to Scouting and our communites as anyone else.
This is a program about youth not policies, if you do not like the policy, remember the youth.
I agree with the decision. It is just sad that some troops will still use religion as an excuse for discrimination.
I see alot of scared “adults” being judgemental.
If someone’s purpose in Scouting is to help boys grow, learn and become good men, then I don’t see an issue with it at all. As long as someone doesn’t join solely to promote their own personal or political agenda, there won’t be any issues. I was told in Scoutmaster training that “If it’s not for the boys, it’s for the birds.” That’s where the focus needs to stay.
Sexual orientation is not apart of scouting as a discussion with boys at any time
If you have a wife and family you are openly expressing a heterosexual orientation. Do you never discuss your family or your spouse around Scouts, or use them as an example in instructing Scouts?
There’s a great deal more to sexual orientation than plumbing or what goes on behind a bedroom door.
Do you really think a 6 7 8 or 9 year understand or care what someone s sexual orientation is. I have 3 grandsons in scouts and I feel it is up to the adults in there life discusses that when the time comes
As a Scoutmaster, I directed Scout conversations that dealt with sexuality to the parents. Those discussions are not the Scoutmaster’s role. Citizenship, leadership, character development, physical fitness and program topics are.
I don’t know why it is such a big deal to be labeled a gay or straight or bi or whatever of ANY profession? Who cares?
Be a good human and move on!
What any of us does in our own homes is our own business. Why do people, of any association, have to keep pressing organizations about their own agendas?
There is and always has been a difference between being gay and being a pedophile. I think the BSA has taken a huge step towards acknowledging that. Scout Leaders have always been prohibited from discussing their sex lives with the boys. Follow the guidelines and there aren’t any problems.
Interesting they held the vote when a large number of the council was out so they could vote without input from all sides
they never wanted any input anyway, this was a done deal.
I’m pretty sure that kind of dishonesty is a violation of the scout law…
Can you point out to me where you found that information?
You can check the official LDS newsroom, the Church leaders were out of the office and specifically asked BSA to hold the vote, many are on the national committee
I am sorry, the LDS comments are not a representation that the entire executive committee was not assembled and voted on this according to form.
I have never understood the need to create membership standards that are in direct conflict with the Scout Oath and Law. We promise to be helpful and honest. To seek truth and support others in finding truth and be role models for our community. Telling others that they are not welcome because of lifestyle choices that have nothing got do with delivering the scouting program. Sexual behavior is not a part of scouting activities or scouting ideals. One of the aims of scouting is to develop good citizens. Banning a section of our community is not being a good citizen.
I don’t see the problem, and I don’t see anything that’s changed. You cannot be a Boy Scout leader and be openly gay. To be openly gay in the context of scouting would require you to engage in discussions of sex and sexuality. Those discussions are expressly forbidden for gay and straight people alike, and have no place in Scouting. Period. End of story.
It is an absolutely terrible decision. I have been a Scoutmaster for over 32 years, and I will continue to be. I am totally against making that change. It’s a poor idea, and one that I do understand that once made, we cannot go back on it. I would have rathered the BSA keep their policies that we’ve had in place for the past 100 years and if not giving into the pressures from other groups, or the fear of losing all that funding meant that in a few years or decades the BSA would cease to exist. I would have accepted that. I’m still involved because I believe in the program and I love camping at BSA properties and teaching the skills and seeing boys achieve great things. I just wish this decision hadn’t been made.
I, and many other Scouters, units and councils exerted considerable pressure to make this change happen. This was not outside groups, this was us.
I stopped supporting Scouting almost ten years ago because of the ban on gay scouts and leaders. As a Scout, Volunteer and Camp Staff member, I kept seeing good boys and men (and women) have to choose between leaving Scouting because they were gay or lying to the powers that be to cover it up. the next month I am going to look up what District I currently live in (there have been some mergers here in MI) and find a new Troop to call home. Too bad this came about too late to get on staff at NOAC this year.
Clarke, I am with you. I weary of the argument. Let us pick up our packs and head on down the trail. New adventures await.
Is that an internal frame or external frame pack?
I’m an external frame guy. Old school.
It sure is going to be difficult selling a $20 box of popcorn this fall. Not that it already wasn’t.
For me, it will be easier.
I was thinking both sides of the issue would be avoiding buying this fall. A $20 box of popcorn is still a hard sale to make.
Outstanding post Clarke!
This will be a BIG Learning experience for Professionals and volunteers
We have one Oath and one Law across all levels now, Cubs on up. Separations or levels based on age is not segregation and exclusion from the program based on who a person is.
Unfortunately, these decisions will continue to kill Scouting. We lost a chuck of membership when openly gay scouts were allowed. I’m guessing we will lose more now.
Robert Gates in 2014 said: “I believe strongly that to re-open the membership issue or try to take last year’s decision to the next step would irreparably fracture or perhaps even provoke a formal, permanent split in this movement — with the high likelihood neither side would subsequently survive on its own.”
I guess we’ll see if he was right or not.
You sir have created a situation now that will cause Christian organizations to drop their charted Troops. Because they will not want to take the liability of being sued because they want to maintain their beliefs. This is a travesty and you know it!!! I have been involved with Scouting since 1970,and am currently a Unit Commissioner.I am an avid Scout supporter,but with your leadership I am afraid that Scouting will ultimately cease to exist! I would really appreciate a reply on this!
Local troops have the right to maintain whatever leadership standards they want to set. In that case, nothing changes except that the local CO will have to make that decision instead of hiding behind the National organization. How does that exemplify the 10th point of the Scout Law?
Brave is one thing,but standing up for your beliefs when your Parent organization will not ,only leads to Churchs dropping their charters.
Everyone said a few years back when we allowed opening gay youth into Scouts that the Churches would drop their Charters and Scouting would start a slow death. Well let’s fast forward to today Scouting is growing again and only a few churches have drop not an entire faith just a few individual church’s due to closed minded Clergy.
Matt Biermann if you read the official statement from the gay organization it said that yes for a time a troop can hide behind the protection of their charter but the law suites will continue and sooner or later BSA will make it open for everyone.
What it boils down to is BSA doesn’t care about gays it’s the money. BSA are losing corporate donations because they wouldn’t let gay adult leaders in. BSA took care of that yesterday by professional scouters. One thing they forgot or don’t care is that it’s the volunteers that meet every week and take these wonderful kids camping not the professional scouter.
This will hurt BSA especially in the Bible belt.
No sir you are wrong,Scouting is suffering,their numbers continue to dwindle.Some of the largest chartered troops have folded,because they lost their chartered organizations,I am involved with the units and have seen it happen.Scouting is not growing again,that is why Mr. Gates is doing this,he thinks it will help.When in reality it will only increase the discord among those that believe in Scouting Core values! Before if lawsuits were brought ,they would be against The Boy Scouts,with the Parent organization saying they approve of openly gay leaders,the emphasis now will shift to the chartering organizations! And these organizations can not afford to fight these battles alone! Thus to continue to follow what they believe ,they will be forced to drop their charters! And who will pick up new charters the lbgt community?
Just look at the Girl Scouts and how they are doing. I have no problem with the lifestyle people lead, it’s not to me to judge but I know what I believe to be right and wrong. Robert Gates did the same thing to the military. Right or wrong, I’m not saying. I do believe it was the money that drove this decision and it’s too bad. Stand behind what you believe in regardless of the pressure you face by the squeaky wheel and you will find the support you need – financial included. I do fear for the litigation to be faced by COs.
Rudy Iturria: I don t know what you are seeing, but I believe that scouting membership is down 12% since the vote a few years back. On top of that, many denominations have reconsidered continuing to charter units (namely the Catholics, the Baptists and the CoC). Note I said many…not all. If we are to believe the media, the LDS is reconsidering their involvement with Scouting, based on yesterday’s decision. That’s notable because the LDS chuch charters the largest number of units nationally.
You are dead wrong about religious organizations being sued for discriminating. Show me one instance where a religious organization has been sued for refusing to allow someone to volunteer, or to become a member of the organization. Religious organizations have broad first amendment rights, it can not and will not happen.
You just watch now that the parent organization has dropped the ball!
That’s not an answer, nor a counterargument, it is a baseless, uninformed opinion that causes fear.
Clarke – To whom are you referring? Please be specific in your response to individuals.
CHARLES JOHNSTONE Sorry! I was responding to the assertion CS made in his original comment that this decision somehow exposes chartered partners to a flood of litigation.
No worries. I enjoy your thoughtful comments, and was worried that something I said was being called into question. 🙂 Keep up the great work, Sir!
Charles Johnstone Thanks! I have been tracking the response from the big religious chartered partners. I would not be surprised if some left, but we are faced with losing them or losing everything. We’ve contracted by 13% since the 2013 decision , I predicted it would be twice that – so we’ll see what happens.
I sat in a meeting held by my Council’s Key 3 a few years where they explained how they voted at the National Meeting in 2013, Unit leaders and the heads of many COs were present. The COs from a few denominations were disappointed that they Key 3 had asked their opinion then voted against the majority of the Council membership. Many said they were re-evaluating their involvement. A few units dropped their charters, and we’ve lost a good percentage of our membership. A few unit have started TLUSA units, but I’ve not seen the mass exodus that was expected. Time will tell how the members and COs react to this.
Lol with all that’s going on with lawsuits over religious freedom and sexual orientation who are you kidding to say it hasn’t happened or won’t? It already has and is, just scouting is next.
What lawsuits? Can you point me to one?
Google it. Watch the news.
No, you show me evidence that your claim has any veracity whatsoever or stop misleading people. I have shown my evidence and made a reasoned argument, now it’s your turn.
The decline in membership over the years has nothing to do with excluding gays. Its a fabricated reason. The reason, in personal experience speaking to parents, is competition for time with school/organized sports. There is a trend that a kid must be in a sport. There are more kids in sports than ever before, soccer, basketball, baseball…etc. That combined with the thought that “scouts aren’t cool” is the predominant reason for membership flux. The only thing the “gay issue” affects are donations from corporations who have been pressured by the gay lobby to stop donating. I have seen the phrase “timeless values” on scouting materiel. What does that mean when you just showed 2.5 million kids that the organizations values are for sale? That money is what’s really important? Or that values are not timeless, but change with the trend of the time? I do not intend a rude tone, but rather put this forth as a serious question. How does someone who has devoted so much to an organization, nay movement, look kids in the eye once you trade 100 years of values overnight because of mostly outside financial pressure? What is the better lesson? Cater to a small minority and compromise tradition and time honored beliefs? Or stand your ground proudly, yet humbly, and do not lack the courage to stand for your convictions?
I can tell you just as authoritatively that the discrimination based on sexual orientation has had a very direct effect on membership. I have been told this directly from perspective parents and heard many stories where others have been told exactly that.
Beyond costing us goodwill we’ve also denied our Scouts the opportunity to work with some very talented, dedicated adults.
If money was the single driving factor (no doubt it is a factor) the BSA would have reversed this discriminatory policy long ago.
This decision was not reached overnight, it has been coming for at least a decade and a half.
I can look my Scouts in the eye very clearly and happily and tell them that discrimination is not a value or ideal of Scouting, and that we have taken a giant step to realizing the promise of our oath and law in eliminating it.
I did stand for my convictions, probably not bravely enough.
And also, I too have read the article from the lgbt community promising to file lawsuits against the Troops that choose to hold to their beliefs. It will happen.
Christians? Christ aid to love one another. What could be simpler?
David Larscheidt – I think the decline in youth membership certainly has something to do with the items you cited, but, and you can’t dent actual facts, scouting membership was flat or increasing a bit before 2013. Since 2013, we’ve seen a decrease of over 13%. That’s in two years! TLUSA has a decent number of members (wikipedia reports 524 troops in 48 states and just under 20,000 members, with another 300 units in the initial charter process). Unit membership is down between 2012 and teh end of 2013 in every group EXCEPT the Mormons. Membership in Mormon units is UP 3.7%. Members in units sponsored by Methodists are down 6.2%, Presbyterians – down 6.7%, Lutherans – down 7.4%, and Catholics and Baptists (both highly critical of the new membership decision in 2013) are down 9.4% and 19.4% respectively. Membership in non-church groups are down significantly too PTA sponsored groups were down 16%, while those sponsored by “Groups of Citizens” were down 26%! Overall, the membership decrease was down over 7.6% between 2012 and the end of 2013. You can’t say with a straight face that these were not precipitated by the membership decision (and partially by the facts that you state). Now, to put this in the proper perspective, we’ll need membership numbers by year for a number of years. Sadly, I can’t find a repository of this data.
Charles Johnstone, are you arguing that the allowing of gay youth negatively impacted membership? I would agree with that! I am at work and could only skim your numbers rather quickly…sorry.
Bob Shumate, you have to read the whole Bible. You can love someone and not accept, nor condone, their behavior or choices. We are told to reach out, in love, and try to correct people in the errors of their ways. The Bible never says to turn a blind eye to sin.
In my town there are four Boy Scout units chartered by christian churches. I expect only one (LDS) will maintain the ban on gay adult leaders.
In our council membership is up 7% over last year. Our troop has grown from 32 to 56 since 2013. We have seen a significant increase in teens joining with no previous Scouting experience.
David Larscheidt – I am making that observation. For a few evangelical groups, this is a dividing line. For the rest of the population, I think they had no idea that the BSA didn’t allow gay youth or gay adults. This awareness caused regular folks to rethink scouting, whether they were in the program or simply thinking about joining. The deop in Catholic and Baptist members shows the former, the drop by “Other organizations” and PTAs shows the latter.
In yesterday’s Washington Post. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2015/07/28/why-mormons-are-so-devastated-by-the-boy-scout-vote-on-gay-leaders/
CJ – Interesting article, there’s a lot of differences of reaction among LDS folks.
Absolutely. That’s expected. I couldn’t find any articles illustrating the other side.
There are now and have always been gay leaders in Scouting. Our generation has made an issue of it. I will continue to focus my efforts on maintain a great program for our boys. I will happily work alongside anyone else who makes this their goal.
SCOUTING IS A GAME for boys, under the leadership of boys, in
which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy envi-
ronment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them
to develop CITIZENSHIP.
Its strongest appeal is through Nature Study and Woodcraft. It deals
with the individual, not with the Company. It raises intellectual as well as
purely physical or purely moral qualities.
At first it used to aim for these ends-now by experience we know that,
where properly handled, it gains them.
Perhaps the best exponent of the aim and methods of Scouting has been
Dean James E. Russell, of Teachers College, Columbia University, New
York. He writes thus:
“The program of the Boy Scouts is the man’s job cut down to boy’s size.
It appeals to the boy not merely because he is a boy, but because he is a
man in the making … The Scouting program does not ask of the boy any-
thing that the man does not do; but step by step it takes him from the place
where he is until he reaches the place where he would be.
“It is not the curriculum of Scouting that is the most striking feature, but
it is the method. As a systematic scheme of leading boys to do the right
thing and to inculcate right habits it is almost ideal. In the doing, two
things stand out-the one is that habits are fixed; the other is that it affords an opportunity for initiative, self-control, self-reliance, and self-direction.
“In the development of initiative Scouting depends not merely on its
program of work for the boy, but in a marvelous way it also utilizes its
machinery of administration. In the administrative scheme a splendid
opportunity is given to break away from any encrusting method. It comes
about in the Patrol and in the Troop. It teaches the boys to work together
in teams. It secures co-operative effort for a common end; that is a demo-
cratic thing in and of itself . . .
“By encouraging your Scouts in a healthy, cheery, and not in a sancti-
monious looking-for-a-reward spirit to do Good Turns as a first step and
to do service for the community as a development, you can do more for
them even than by encouraging their proficiency or their discipline or their
knowledge, because you are teaching them not how to get a living so much
as how to live.”
“SCOUTING IS A GAME for boys, under the leadership of boys, in
which elder brothers can give their younger brothers healthy envi-
ronment and encourage them to healthy activities such as will help them
to develop CITIZENSHIP…..”
Yes. That.
I agree with this decision. As a Scoutmaster of 40 years, I do not want to see the BSA continue to lose more and more because we are classified as a ‘discriminatory’ organization. Besides this, I see it as no big deal. We went through this same thing when it was decided to let women be Scoutmasters. “It will destroy Scouting!” The first couple years there were women Scoutmasters everywhere. Now you hardly ever see one. All they wanted was the right. Same will be with gay leaders. They just want the right. Let’s face it, camping in the mud is not exactly at the top of gay men’s want to do list. Ha! Also, believe it or not, we’ve already had them for years. I love the Scouting program, and if this means more boys and men get involved, as long as they abide by the rules all the rest of us must follow, let’s stop arguing and go out and have fun enjoying the program!
David, we are showing the boys to accept people who are different and not to shut them out just because we do not like the way they are. Gay is not a value choice, it’s in the DNA and we are not going to change that. I do not understand gay, I never will, but I do know no gay person has ever hurt me or anyone I know. On the contrary, the ones I have known were some of the nicest people I ever met. We also cannot be hypocrites. By this, I mean how many Scout leaders have committed adultery? How many are divorced? How many never enter a church? As it is said, let he who is without sin ….. It is not our job as leaders to judge our boys, but to do our best to lead them down the path to being a good citizen. If your son came to you at 12 years old and said Dad, I’m gay, would you throw him out, lock the door, and never associate with him again? Or would you love him and treat him the same as any child? Scouting should do the same. My Troop is open to any boy or adult that wants to experience the Scouting program. I leave it to God to judge them later.
Whatever you’re feeling right now about this decision … for, against or indifferent … someone in 1964 was feeling the exact same when the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act were passed.
Now you know how they felt.
A very poignant observation.
History repeats itself. 🙂
I’m happy to see this change and think it’s an excellent compromise. However, I don’t think political extremists can see a compromise and not plot how to destroy it. The name of the game is zero sum. I must win and you must lose. Unfortunately the real losers are the BSA and the youth members.
The Scout Law says to be Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind and Cheerful to the people I meet. I will treat all Scouts and Adults who come to my program in this manner. 🙂 It all comes down to that.
Thank you BSA for making the great decision to include ALL parents as potential volunteers! Way to demonstrate true scout values! I’m proud to be an adult volunteer in this inclusive character development organization!
Two questions: what part of ‘morally straight’ doesn’t apply here? And Would you as a ‘straight’ father, feel comfortable sending your 11 year old son on a camp out with an openly gay adult leader? I won’t change anything in our troop due to this change in policy. However for me, the change does taint the Oath and Law.
Morally straight involves the actions you take with regard to choices in your life. Being a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs.
It doesn’t mean sexual preference and is never referenced as such in the handbook. Beyond YPT, there really isn’t a need to discuss these topics with the youth, that’s the parent’s job.
Amazing point Matt.
Very True
By “core value”, I assume you’re referring to “morally straight”? Let’s hear from Baden-Powell on this issue:
“The conception [understanding] of moral good is not altogether satisfying. The highest form known to us at present is pure unselfishness, the doing of good, not for any reward now or hereafter, nor for the completion of any imaginary scheme.”
It was commonly understood in Baden-Powell’s era that “morally straight” would be to know right from wrong, and to choose the right action in every case even if it is personally inconvenient or costly. This was founded in principles of Chivalry, something else Baden-Powell was keen on.
I find nowhere in my Christian upbringing that says I am to exclude homosexuals from equal participation in society. And yes, I feel comfortable sending my 11 (now 13) year old boy on an overnight campout with one or more gay leaders.
so we are taking morally straight out of Scout oath????? On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.
I’ve been unable to find in any policy, handbook, or official document of the BSA that “morally straight” was in reference to sexual orientation or preference. Can you point me to that please?
I was always under the impression that morally straight involves the actions you take with regard to choices in your life. Being a person of strong character, your relationships with others should be honest and open. You should respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs.
Morally Straight defined, from the Scout Handbook, p23 – Your relationships with others should be honest and open. Respect and defend the rights of all people. Be clean in your speech and actions, and remain faithful in your religious beliefs. The values you practice as a Scout will help you shape a life of virtue and self-reliance.
It was commonly understood in Baden-Powell’s era that “morally straight” would be to know right from wrong, and to choose the right action in every case even if it is personally inconvenient or costly. This was founded in principles of Chivalry, something else Baden-Powell was keen on.
I find nowhere in my Christian upbringing that says I am to exclude homosexuals from equal participation in society.
For sometime now, the BSA has been disappointing me and my family. As a result of this, my family (me/former Scoutmaster, #2 son/former Assistant Scoutmaster, wife/Committee Member and #3 son/Eagle Scout) has decided to leave the BSA.
Since this issue came up initially a few years ago, I have vocally told the parents in my Pack to expect no change to the incredible programming we offer the boys. Sexual orientation has never played a role in the activities we offer, nor should it. If a parent wants to be an active and involved leader the only question I ask is how can you help? Sexual orientation is not and has never been a factor. While I applaud this change in the national bylaws, it truly will not affect the day to day operation of our unit. Now everyone go back to arguing over which tent is better in negative 20 degrees.
The new Kelty’s are great! I demoed one earlier this year, but they warm up in the summer. My eureka! Surnriver II is a good 3 season, but doesn’t have enough space in the vestibule for heavy snow and ice
I have an MSR that I love. It is super light and comfortable in all weather (though it does tend to retain heat in the summer).
Just plain sad. BSA used to be a moral compass for this decaying society.
Its best not to be on the wrong side of history…future generations will wonder why we allowed bigotry to permeate BSA for so long. This change was a longtime coming and I applaud the decision.
Wrong side of history. ……. like Sodom and Gomorrah?
We, the supporters of the Scouting program, need to be at our most active now. We need to show our communities and our unit’s families that Scouting as a program is here to stay.
This line from Scouting magazine says it best “Everyone in the Scouting family should remember that Scouting isn’t the place to discuss sexual conduct.”
A-freakin-men!
“For far too long, this issue has divided and distracted us. Now it’s time to unite behind our shared belief in the extraordinary power of Scouting to be a force for good.” Well said, Mr Gates.
The campaign director for Scouts for Equality (the group that’s been pushing this all along) wrote “This is only another step forward in the right direction. We need your help to build a fully inclusive BSA.” Don’t fool yourselves – this is not over.
Of course it isn’t. My daughter was less than a year old when my son started Cubs and has had better attendance than most Scouts. Now, she’s crushed that he’s no longer in the Pack and she is not welcome to be a member of the organization she grew up in until she is 13. GSA is a is not a replacement but that is all that is available to her at this time. Let’s join the rest of the WSOM (except the Middle East) with fully inclusive membership policies.
That’s what I find abhorrent about this whole thing. Belief in God is next. I really believe that there should have been some debate here, but as I’ve said all along, this wound is self-inflicted. Now, lets’ see the rush of donors come back. Oh, and more members should be signing up, right?
God loves all.
To do my duty to God ….. what does this mean ?
That you do your duty to your God and let others define it for themselves.
To love my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love my neighbor as myself. I fail miserably at that, so I’m thankful to have a Savior that paid the penalty for my failing. Part of the loving my neighbor part is serving these boys that need guidance and chances to build character.
I wonder if your belief in one God is still a requirement.
Keith, as we all should know, there is only one God, and he does not approve of the Gay lifestyle. I could not, if I had small children, allow them to be in the Boy Scouts. No child is safe anywhere, anymore. Why place them in possible danger.
I was a Girl Scout! We always said the pledge before the meetings! Sad what this would has become! Just my humble opinion.
Faith in a higher power. BSA is non sectarian, Paul. All religions accepted, not just those of the Abrahamic tree’s Christian branch.
Duty to God defined, from the Scout Handbook – Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs.
There was never a requirement for a belief in “one God”. Duty to God, in Baden-Powells own words, was to acknowledge a higher power than mankind and to selflessly serve that power.
In a Christian context it means Matthew 7:12
I’m skeptical, and I can easily argue both sides of the issue. I don’t believe my day-to-day scout activities will change, and I have every intention of planning the same program today that I would have planned yesterday. My focus has been, is, and will continue to be on the boys: providing a program that encourages them to live by the Scout Oath and Law and gives them opportunities to put them into practice.
woohoo!
I’m going to keep Scouting on! It’s a non-issue for me and our Troop.
Thats why I love you Joey. Being realistuc on this issue is the only way to go with it.
Way to go BSA!
I expect this to change nothing in my day-to-day scout activities, though I wonder what the next hot-button topic will be.